How should we approach the denial of the genocide?

[surferarmo]

My great grandmother who survived the genocide is still alive. To see her, a living relic of the past, is so inspiring. I can not explain it to anyone, the feeling is hard to articulate. It is almost religious. I cant believe she went through that. I am not the most passionate about the genocide. I should be. But I do realize that I am not. Anyway, I only do something about it once a year. First of all I must say that I hate it when young Armenians today say that "We should forget it, it happened almost 100 years ago." Nothing makes my blood boil more than that phrase.

I only do something on April 24. Though I do something, I demonstrate, and this and that, it really amounts to nothing. All it gets us is earned media. We need to have some kind of lobbying power. There is obviously a political advantage for the US to keep denying the genocide. The government will never officially recognize the events of 1915 until we have something that they need. A protest by a couple hundred armo kids at the turkish embassy isnt going to do much. No legislation is going to pass because we do that. There has to be something else.

Are there any lawyers out there? Is there anyone who understands practical politics? I know there has been attempts to pass legislation that have failed. I want to know if there is some way to work through the American government, ie lobbying, proposals, bills that we can pass to have this legislation go through.

I dont want anything physical from the turks. No money, no nothing. Our land would be nice actually. They cant bring our families back, they cant give me anything. All I want is for the people of the strongest nation on the earth to recognize and learn about the genocide as they do the holocaust. I want this taught in schools throughout the country. Because of these turkish xxxxxxxs, our people have dispersed and the culture is decimating over time. If we give up on this, then we give up on ourselves. My great grandmother deserves justice. Your great grandmother deserves justice. You deserve justice. We deserve justice.

[xBaron Dants]

Well, what we can't do is hope that governments (especially US) will "do the right thing". We keep showing pictures of our suffering ancestors, as we should, yet we forget that for foreign governments, their personal gains will by far outweigh any emotion caused by those pictures. What we must do is present clear political advantages that foreign governments would have in recognizing the genocide. Of course, it is not the way it SHOULD be, but it has worked so far for turkey. Martin Luther King Jr stated that "the means you use must be as pure as the ends you seek". In our case, this hasn't worked and we, whether we like it or not, have to play the same political game turkey has been playing so far, to finally get justice. To do this, however, Armenia must be an economically stronger country, because it would give more weight to our word. I also believe that the ANCA has a huuuuuge role to play in all of this, as one of the strongest lobbying groups in the States. What must we do? What must we offer? I do not know yet. But in times like this where the US has somehow lost faith in turkey, we must jump on eveeeery little opportunity we get.

[vrej]

well first of all we can start by educating ourselves on the subject because sadly many Armenians do not know anything past "1.5 million armenians died in 1915".. i suggest everyone reads deeper and learn about the Armenian Genocide to be able to defend the truth if a case of denial arises. We must prepare to be the future defenders of our case, because the people working in hye tad are not gonna be there forever.. we must join our Hye Tad committees and begin working within the comunity.

Yes, if the U.S accepts the genocide we will have the upper hand, but it all comes down to Turkey recognizing it... the U.S can recognize it today, and trash it the next...

We must work in our Armenian communities, raise awareness through political means, be it flyer passing, posters, or public lectures.. for youth i suggest u join your nearest AYF Yeridasartagan, and enter into the political commitee to do this type of work, and if u like it i suggest you join hye tad...

WE WILL ONLY GET SOMEWHERE WHEN PEOPLE STOP RELYING IN THE OTHER TO DO THE WORK, YOU GET OFF YOU ASS AND JOIN THE OTHER PERSON AND WORK TOGETHER!

[surferarmo]

Very good approaches guys. What do you see we are doing wrong now?

[xBaron Dants]

Very very good point Vrej. As I saw in Ottawa last year, it seemed that many people were there just because they could miss school.

After educating ourselves though, we must talk to it to people around us, in order to get some sort of public awareness and support. This is why I have done many oral presentations on the subject in school, and why at least 80% of my school now knows about the armenian genocide.

What armenians often do is place their own history ahead of everyone else's. In high school for example, we had a course about the deportation of the acadians. In amplitude, it doesn't compare to the armenian genocide, but it is a sad event for the french canadians. What a few armenians did was saying to everyone around them (french canadians): this is such a small thing compared to what we've been through etc.
We can't expect support from others if we don't do the same.

Another good point you make Vrej when you talk about pressuring Turkey. Since no communication has been established between the turks and Armenia, an acceptance by the states would be a good way to pressure turkey. We should try to play the european union card with turkey, as I am sure that the recognition of the genocide will get them closer to accession in the EU. In fact, Turkey does have a lot to gain (yet hopefully some land to lose) if it does accept its past and apologizes accordingly. However, we must stop ALL discussions if they keep on insisting about leaving Artsakh in order to start conversing.

[xBaron Dants]

ok, this thread is kinda old, but this is an article I got off groong.com (again). If we were to pressure the States to pressure Turkey, this could be one of our tools...

Al Qaeda Reborn

Revamped Al Qaeda May Be Operating Out of Georgia, Employing New Tactics

ABCNews.com
May 19, 2003

Al Qaeda, though weakened, is replenishing and smuggling terror
operatives from new training camps in the Republic of Georgia, and
these terrorists possibly are being protected by Iran, sources told
ABCNEWS.

While President Bush and the FBI have repeatedly stressed that al
Qaeda is being dismantled, terrorist attacks last week in Saudi Arabia
indicate that the terror group is still active — and authorities in
London, Paris, Madrid and Washington are predicting more attacks.

Al Qaeda's operation has been crippled by the U.S.-led war on
terrorism, but it has shifted its tactics and taken on new commanders
and adopted new routes of travel, sources said.

>From new training camps in Georgia, sources told ABCNEWS, al Qaeda
operatives are being smuggled into Europe and across the Black Sea
before settling into safe houses in Turkey. Employees of these safe
houses do not hesitate to protect these al Qaeda operatives.

"I'm not going to call police against Hezbollah, al Qaeda," one desk
clerk at the Interyouth Hostel in Turkey told ABCNEWS' Brian Ross. "I
don't do this."

New Military Chief and New Tactics

Osama bin Laden's whereabouts remain a mystery to U.S. authorities,
but officials told ABCNEWS his former bodyguard Saif el-Adel is his
new military chief. Sources said el-Adel is operating out of Iran,
where he and other al Qaeda operatives are being protected by the
Iranian Revolutionary Guard.

"It [al Qaeda] has a management council that has sanctuary inside of
Iran," said ABCNEWS consultant and former U.S. counterterrorism
official Richard Clarke. "It has tens of thousands of trained
operatives that were trained in camps in Afghanistan who are still at
large. So, although we've done a lot of damage to al Qaeda, it's still
a potent force."

The FBI has offered a $25 million reward for el-Adel's capture for his
alleged involvement in the 1998 bombings of the U.S. embassies in
Kenya and Tanzania.

Last week's deadly attacks in the Saudi capital of Riyadh showed new
terror tactics, which included simultaneous attacks on multiple
targets. In the attacks, armed operatives cleared security personnel
as multiple vehicles packed with explosives honed in on various "soft"
targets that promised many casualties.

FBI officials believe these tactics could be a harbinger of things to
come on U.S. soil. The Department of Homeland Security sent out an
information bulletin today that said the attacks involved extensive
surveillance and planning — a trademark of al Qaeda-led operations.

"While the ability to conduct multiple, near simultaneous attacks
against several targets is not new for terrorist groups such as al
Qaeda, the manner in which these attacks was conducted indicates a
more refined capability," the bulletin said. "In each attack a number
of armed terrorists was used to eliminate the security elements
guarding the compounds so [a] suicide cadre could drive a vehicle
borne improvised explosive device to the desired location and detonate
it."

Homeland Bulletin

The bulletin warned officials and the public to be aware of the
following factors, among others:

- Theft of explosives, blasting caps, or fuses, or certain chemicals
used in the manufacture of explosives.

- Rental of self-storage space for the purpose of storing chemicals or
chemical-mixing apparatus.

- Delivery of chemicals directly to a self-storage facility or unusual
deliveries of chemicals

- Chemical fires, toxic odors, brightly colored stains, or rusted
metal fixtures in apartments, hotel/motel rooms, or self-storage
units.

- Rental, theft, or purchase of truck or van with minimum 1-ton
carrying capacity.

- Modification of truck or van with heavy duty springs to handle
heavier loads.

Any of these factors alone do not necessarily suggest terrorist
activity, homeland security officials warned. But authorities should
consider and notice these factors if they suspect various targets may
be vulnerable to attacks.

"The statistical odds are that we are going to get hit domestically,
and that's just a fact that we can't sugarcoat," said Rep. Porter
Gross, R-Fla., chairman of the House Intelligence Committee.

Much Work to Do

However, U.S. officials said last week's Saudi attacks also
illustrated al Qaeda's weakness. One captured suspect reportedly said
that despite advanced planning, the terror operatives were rushed into
action and unable to hit more symbolic targets such as the
U.S. Embassy.

Still, authorities worldwide are on alert and wary that al Qaeda may
strike again and soon. FBI teams are dispatched around the world,
working with authorities and searching for clues for where the terror
group may strike next. And this has made President Bush call for
vigilance once again in the war on terror.

"There's an al Qaeda group still actively plotting to kill," Bush said
at a news conference today with Philippine President Gloria Macapagal
Arroyo. "I always said this was going to be a long war. We're slowly
but surely dismantling the al Qaeda operational network. But we've got
a lot of work to do."


ABCNEWS' Brian Ross in London contributed to this report.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/World/ross_new_alqaeda030519.html

[fIReBuRntInHeLL]

AS LONG US HAS AS SISTERSOULS ISRAEL AND TURKEY, NO MATTER HOW WE PROTEST NEVER THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE WILL BE RECOGNIZED!

[xBaron Dants]

What I was suggesting with that post was that the US might lose trust in Turkey (as it has lately) and would be willing to pressure it. In this case, recognizing the armenian genocide would put pressure on Turkey to try to cease their support for terrorist organizations. It would also get armenian support for Mr. aBush during the upcoming elections.

This is, of course, all going on in my head, and US support for our cause is not likely to happen anytime soon.

Our main priority should be trying to educate the Turks. Because of the internet, the government can no longer censor everything, and if we put up some nicely done websites (no more "xxxx u turks"), public opinion can soon shift our way.

The armenian genocide, though still a taboo subject, is being more and more discussed in Turkey, and I recently read an interesting (translation of) article published in the Turkish Times (I think). I'll try to find it and post it.

[surferarmo]

What I was suggesting with that post was that the US might lose trust in Turkey (as it has lately) and would be willing to pressure it. In this case, recognizing the armenian genocide would put pressure on Turkey to try to cease their support for terrorist organizations. It would also get armenian support for Mr. aBush during the upcoming elections.

This is, of course, all going on in my head, and US support for our cause is not likely to happen anytime soon.

Our main priority should be trying to educate the Turks. Because of the internet, the government can no longer censor everything, and if we put up some nicely done websites (no more "xxxx u turks"), public opinion can soon shift our way.

The armenian genocide, though still a taboo subject, is being more and more discussed in Turkey, and I recently read an interesting (translation of) article published in the Turkish Times (I think). I'll try to find it and post it.

Baron, I agree with you. This is our opportunity to strike. It must be well orchistrated, cordial and aggressive. This is our chance, public opinion could easily be swayed now. Not many people are in favor of the turks.

[HyeJinx1984]

This is the kinda stuff I like to hear.. although, I got nothing to add at the moment, lol. I'm helping in my own small way... But if the U.S. truly is loosing faith in Turkey than that really is good for us. Too be honest, I'm still not sure why the U.S. is allies with Turkey... what does Turkey provide really?