Courageous Armenian Priest Challenges Turks on Turkish TV!

[CatWoman]

Still waiting 'thinktwice'....

You know we're talking about 1.5 million deaths here! For denying something this serious, you need to have some historians on your side. Let's hear their names.

[winoman]

Oh - and speaking of legal findings:

This unbiased analysis was undertaken in response to a request by Turkish commision memebers of The Turkish Armenian Reconciliation Commission (TARC) - for investigation of the legality of the issue of Genocide in regards to the Armenian "claims" - and this was the result (BTW - the Turkish comminsion memebers never returned after this judgement was passed) - too chicken to face the facts (that phrase should be recast to say "too Turkey")


February 10, 2003



The Applicability of the United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide to Events which Occurred During the Early Twentieth Century

Legal Analysis Prepared for the International Center for Transitional Justice

The Turkish Armenian Reconciliation Commission (TARC), formed July 9, 2001, by Turkish and Armenian civil society representatives, requested that the International Center for Transitional Justice (ICTJ) facilitate an independent legal study on the applicability of the 1948 Genocide Convention to events which occurred during the early twentieth century. On February 4, 2003, ICTJ provided TARC the following analysis on the subject. This analysis was issued to the public by TARC on February 10, 2003.

Read the full text of the memorandum.

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY OF LEGAL CONCLUSIONS
International law generally prohibits the retroactive application of treaties unless a different intention appears from the treaty or is otherwise established. The Genocide Convention contains no provision mandating its retroactive application. To the contrary, the text of the Convention strongly suggests that it was intended to impose prospective obligations only on the States party to it. Therefore, no legal, financial or territorial claim arising out of the Events could successfully be made against any individual or state under the Convention.

The term genocide, as used in the Convention to describe the international crime of that name, may be applied, however, to many and various events that occurred prior to the entry into force of the Convention. References to genocide as a historical fact are contained in the text of the Convention and its travaux preparatoires.

As it has been developed by the International Criminal Court (whose Statute adopts the Convention's definition of genocide), the crime of genocide has four elements: (i) the perpetrator killed one or more persons; (ii) such person or persons belonged to a particular national, ethnical, racial or religious group; (iii) the perpetrator intended to destroy, in whole or in part, that group, as such; and (iv) the conduct took place in the context of a manifest pattern of similar conduct directed against that group or was conduct that could itself effect such destruction.

There are many accounts of the Events, and significant disagreement among them on many issues of fact. Notwithstanding these disagreements, the core facts common to all of the various accounts of the Events we reviewed establish that three of the elements listed above were met: (1) one or more persons were killed; (2) such persons belonged to a particular national, ethnical, racial or religious group; and (3) the conduct took place in the context of a manifest pattern of similar conduct directed against that group. For purposes of assessing whether the Events, viewed collectively, constituted genocide, the only relevant area of disagreement is on whether the Events were perpetrated with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such. While this legal memorandum is not intended to definitively resolve particular factual disputes, we believe that the most reasonable conclusion to draw from the various accounts of the Events is that at least some of the perpetrators of the Events knew that the consequence of their actions would be the destruction, in whole or in part, of the Armenians of eastern Anatolia, as such, or acted purposively towards this goal, and, therefore, possessed the requisite genocidal intent. Because the other three elements identified above have been definitively established, the Events, viewed collectively, can thus be said to include all of the elements of the crime of genocide as defined in the Convention, and legal scholars as well as historians, politicians, journalists and other people would be justified in continuing to so describe them.

[thinktwice]

Still waiting 'thinktwice'....

You know we're talking about 1.5 million deaths here! For denying something this serious, you need to have some historians on your side. Let's hear their names.

LOL are playing poker?

I told you that i know in the first pace. I'll investigate more if you need.

And you didn't come up with any clue to treachery investigation and lobby activities instead of law suits.

[winoman]

Still waiting 'thinktwice'....

You know we're talking about 1.5 million deaths here! For denying something this serious, you need to have some historians on your side. Let's hear their names.

Benard Lewis was mentioned - yes? hm

"...a million and a half Armenians perished"

Beanrd Lewis: The Emergence of Modern Turkey - 1961

[thinktwice]

Treachery Armenian people...

Senaky Lobby activities...


it's silent here isn't it?

[CatWoman]

LOL are playing poker?

I told you that i know in the first pace. I'll investigate more if you need.

And you didn't come up with any clue to treachery investigation and lobby activities instead of law suits.

I don't get your point, this post is too vague.

I just simply asked you to name some historians who deny the genocide... you couldn't. Did you read the letter winoman posted from International Association of Genocide Scholars? Also, 126 Holocaust Scholars published an article in New Yourk times on June 9th, 2000 asking the government and people to recognize the genocide. So all these genocide and holocaust scholars are wrong, yet you couldn't come up with the name of some scholars/historians who deny it?

[winoman]

Yes catwoman this guy is pathetic

I really don't expect anything of substance but his racist rant - but its OK - let him gobble gobble

hey thickhead - choke on this - German Ottoman archives - quite extensive - and in English -

http://www.armenocide.de/armenocide/armgende.nsf/WebStart_En?OpenFrameset

For the first time, a government opened its official archives on one of the most terrible events of the 20th century, the Armenian genocide in the Ottoman Empire from 1915 until 1918, only a few months after the end of the war. No Western nation could contribute more towards the enlightenment of a crime against humanity than the empire which was allied with Turkey, for the German military was represented in the top positions of all the military organisations in Turkey, German diplomats had close contact, in part, to those responsible and the best access to the places of horror. Unlike the Austrians, who were also allies, and the neutral Americans, the German diplomats were able to report to their superiors by means of encoded telegrams. If non-Turkish documents were able to give information on the extent of and the background to the genocide, then these would be first and foremost German.
And we find such things asa very few exerpts from the whole - believe me - look and see...)

"The final result must be the extermination of the Armenian race." (Schuekri Bey)

From Consulate Erzerum (Scheubner-Richter) to Embassy Constantinople
06/02/1915
Consultations with the Supreme Commander ended without success. All of the Armenians are to be deported to Deir-es-Zor, which is tantamount to a massacre: for lack of a means of transportation it is expected that less than half will reach the place of destination alive

From Consulate Aleppo (Roessler) to Embassy Constantinople
06/06/1915
...Mordtmann noted in a memo that he presented the matter to Talaat Bey in a form which eliminated its being wrongly interpreted. Talaat made it clear to him in this discussion that the Turkish government wished to make use of the world war to decimate its internal enemies, the local Christians of all confessions.

From Consulate Mossul (Holstein) to Embassy Constantinople
06/13/1915
The German vice-consul reports that the massacres of the Armenians in Vilayet Diarbekir could have unforeseeable consequences. Christians were practically outlawed. The venerable Chaldean Patriarch had been court-martialled by a simple policeman for no reason at all. The persecution of Christians in general and the massacres of the Armenians in particular must definitely cease.

From Consulate Erzerum (Scheubner-Richter) to Embassy Constantinople
06/18/15
The German vice-consul reported that there were rumours of a revolt by the Armenians in Adana. Investigations by the German embassy in Constantinople showed that nothing was known there about to Armenian revolt (interpretation - rumours were passed on about a non-existant Armenain revolt - when Germans checked there was no revolt occuring...)

From Consulate Erzerum (Scheubner-Richter) to Embassy Constantinople
06/26/1915
The Supreme Commander had given instructions that all Armenians were to be deported from Erzerum. This order can only be put down to racial hatred and will, no doubt, have serious consequences for the army, because all of the military craftsmen are Armenians.

From Consulate Trapezunt (Bergfeld) to Embassy Constantinople
06/29/1915
According to the German consul, he was of the same opinion as all of his colleagues that the deportation of women and children was tantamount to mass murder. He was endeavouring to achieve exceptions.

From the Consul in Trapezunt (Bergfeld) to the Reichskanzler (Bethmann Hollweg)
07/09/1915

However, it was also explained to him that the expulsion was not being carried out against the Christians but against the Armenians, so that an Armenian who had converted to Islam would then also be due for expulsion as a Muslim Armenian.

In the meantime, there are signs that elsewhere there are plans to annihilate the Armenians

In fact, between Erzinghian and Diarbekir Armenians have been massacred on the mountain road, allegedly by Kurds, and larger bands of ambushers ...it is remarkable that in that area, which up to now was considered safe, such large bands can be formed. Without being able to produce any evidence for my opinion, I cannot help thinking that the Young Turkish Committee can be regarded as the driving force behind the measures being taken against the Armenians. The Central Committee seems to want to finally put an end to the Armenian question in this way, because only in exceptional cases will those Armenians who actually reach their destination return later to their former homes. Most of them will not have the necessary means. This will mean that in future there will no longer be any provinces with a strong Armenian percentage of the population. The local committees of the Young Turks hope to gain extensive private profit from taking over the possessions of the deported Armenians

From the Ambassador in Constantinople (Wangenheim) to the Reichskanzler (Bethmann Hollweg)

07/06/1915
...the rigorous measures of the Turkish government cannot be regarded as justified. Unfortunately, my interventions with the Porte promise only little success.

If I have recently reported in greater detail about these occurrences to Your Excellency, then this was done under the presumption, which is also shared by Vice Consul Kuckhoff, that our enemies will later accuse us of being accomplices. With the help of my reports, we will be in a position to prove to the hostile world at an appropriate time, in particular through the press, that we have always expressly condemned the exaggerated measures of the Turkish government and even more so the excesses of local official bodies.


Wangenheim

etc etc and so on and so forth

[TomServo]

Treachery Armenian people...

Senaky Lobby activities...


it's silent here isn't it?

Was "treachery" on your word of the day calendar?

No, the "lobby activities" aren't sneaky at all. In fact, they're well publicized. I don't know what the Turkish newspapers have been feeding you, but they're wrong.

[Crimson Glow]

Was "treachery" on your word of the day calendar?

No, the "lobby activities" aren't sneaky at all. In fact, they're well publicized. I don't know what the Turkish newspapers have been feeding you, but they're wrong.

Yes, exactly! I mean, I don't understand why you keep bringing up "treachery" and "lobbyists". How exactly does that justify the killings??


Lobbyist:

You're well aware you have lobbyists of your own, fighting just as hard to have the genocide denied by other nations (those who haven't "officially" accepted it yet), right? You're well aware that you spend quite a nice chunk of change on this yourself, aren't you? I mean, you are a "well researched and informed" guy, yes? Lobbying to get the genocide recognize is neither sneaky, nor wrong. It's WELL publicized, as Winoman said. We aren't exactly trying to hide this. We want it KNOWN we're lobbying/fighting for this. On the other hand, if a country like the US feels that they've done the research, and they side with Armenians, why can't you just accept that instead of Turkey threatening to not allow them to use your air bases if they make it official? Why did your government threaten nations if they allowed the distribution of the movie Ararat? Now THAT'S low!! There are free thinking, democratic nations out their, and for some reason, the Turkish government doesn't want them to make up their own minds (wonder why...if what we spew is so far fetched). The Turkisk government can't control EVERbody, like it does their own citizens, playing their own people like puppets.


Treachery:

As to the treachery thing, we went through this already on the other thread, and you never did answer me. As I said, I'm still having trouble understanding how this justifies the killing of all the innocent people. Couldn't the almighty Ottoman Empire rid itself of a few, measly Armenian rebels running around? They decided the only way to eliminate those handfull of people was to kill ALL its Armenian citizens?? And exactly on what planet did they think this would be acceptable? That's like saying the US should just kill all Iraqi citizens right now in order to eliminate the tiny groups of insurgence. Guess what? The rebels aren't living among the citizens. They have strongholds, and hideouts. If you killed every last citizen of Iraq in every village/town, you still wouldn't have ridded yourself of the insurgency. Same applies for the Armenian/Ottoman Empire situation. You killed 1.5 million Turkish citizens of Armenian decent. Did it stop the rebels problem?? Did destroying the existence of these people, who never lifted a hand against Turks, stop those that were attacking you??? So basically, my point is, even IF we go with your "treachery" theory, I'm trying to understand how that makes what the Ottoman Empire did ok. How exactly is this helping your case? Do elaborate.

[thinktwice]

You will notice and understand one day what happened during WWI. If you take your case to international law suit then we will see what happen. And then you won't have anything in your hands. I'm so sad for you.

Have a nice day with your so-called genocide...