Opinions of a Turk, or two (hi from Turkey)

[thinktwice]

I was just passing by and i want to say that don't bother cemil, sadi and others. Armenians on this forum are worst of all except one or two. They are living in their own fantasy world. If you say anything against so-called genocide it's enough for them to insult you not matter who you are. You can't discuss with these people trust me it experienced.

diaspora love "Taner Akçam" ( historian against regime in Turkey ) because he's telling what do they want to hear. If one day Akçam show up and say no-genocide they hate him

diaspora love "ittihad ve terakki" because after scratching archives for decades they only found Talat who was member of junta and his thoughts

diaspora love "french politics" because they are going bed together

And you see they are very objective people to talk

[TomServo]

Diaspora love Valbreso.

[winoman]

NoThinkTurks - it is your loss to discont Akcam - he is saying some very important things about your nation that it might just be worthwhile for you to undersrand. As for your comments - typical ignorant level - they have no bearing on anything. And BTW - there is more chance that your Prime Minister will affirm the Genocide than Akcam will repudiate it - because Akcam will not - he understands and tells the truth.

[TomServo]

diaspora love "Taner Akçam" ( historian against regime in Turkey ) because he's telling what do they want to hear. If one day Akçam show up and say no-genocide they hate him

The same can be said about the Turks and Sam Weems, so I suggest you shut it.

[AmericanTurk]

I'm curious AmericanTurk - when and where did this happen?

My grand daddy told me it was near Erzurum. We've been there numerous times but couldn't find much left. Armenian gangs killed almost everybody, only a few escaped. The area was reclaimed by the Ottomans but the ruins were left unocupied for years then the lands were sold. The village has been completely destroyed, all you can find is a few ruins now.

I posted this on another forum, but in case you haven't checked it:

....................
The excerpts below were taken from a speech of Justin McCarthy, an American historian:

http://www.atmg.org/Erzurum1915.html

"..The worst suffering of Erzurum's Muslims only came once the Russians had left. During the Russian Revolution the Russian soldiers simply left Anatolia and walked home. They left behind a small group of officers and a large number of Armenian soldiers. The Armenians wished to make Erzurum a part of the Greater Armenian they had always dreamed of. They could not do so if Erzurum was more than three-fourths Muslim. They therefore began a policy of murder and forced migration of the Muslims of Erzurum, just as they were doing to the Azeri Turks in Erivan.."

"..The Ottoman Army stepped in to retake Erzurum and to stop the slaughter of the Turks. The Armenians could not stand against them. They retreated, and in their retreat killed all the Muslims they could find..."



"...An Austrian journalist on the scene reported:

All the villages from Trabzon to Erzincan and from Erzincan to Erzurum are destroyed. Corpses of Turks brutally and cruelly slain are everywhere. I am now in Erzurum, and what I see is terrible. Almost the whole city is destroyed. The smell of corpses still fills the air..."


"...The Armenians were retreating before the Ottoman Army. They were in danger. Yet they stopped whenever they could to kill the innocent Muslims of Erzurum, despite the risk to their own safety. This kind of hatred and madness cannot be explained. It is often falsely claimed that the Turks committed a genocide of the Armenians. Yet this was the real genocide, a genocide of the Turks..."
...........................

[winoman]

AmericanTurk - McCarthy is clearly talking about things that allegedly occured after the 1917 revolution - and he has admitted this. I'm not saying that what your family believes is untrue - or that they have their dates wrong or such - as I can believe such might have happend in 1912 - and this is a shame - and I am very sorry for such things and for your family - but by and large this was a very isolated thing from some misguided thugs who had beliefs and took actions on their own and were not supported by Armenians at large. We also don't know - in this case - who may have started the violence and for what reason - we can likely only speculate in this particualr case. Again - I am not disounting that some Armenains did commit violance and brutal acts. However - the history of predatory behavior against the Armenians - in this region and elsewhere predates this time and was of greater intenisty and was much more common. Throughout the mid-late 19th century we see numorous petetions to the Sultan and eventually to outside powers such as Russia for relief of these sort of preditations against the Armenians. There was a clear and prevelant pattern of such that drove Armenians to look ofr relief and drove some Armenians to radical action.

And SillylookingFez - we see your threat - same as your forefathers made to the Armenians for being "uppity" in asking for relief from their mistreatment. You laugh and joke about such things - but to us they are very real and painful - perhaps AmericanTurk can understand this as making light of such things - our familiy's pain - should be insulting and hurtful to him as well.

[Fedoraİ]

AmericanTurk - McCarthy is clearly talking about things that allegedly occured after the 1917 revolution - and he has admitted this. I'm not saying that what your family believes is untrue - or that they have their dates wrong or such - as I can believe such might have happend in 1912 - and this is a shame - and I am very sorry for such things and for your family - but by and large this was a very isolated thing from some misguided thugs who had beliefs and took actions on their own and were not supported by Armenians at large. We also don't know - in this case - who may have started the violence and for what reason - we can likely only speculate in this particualr case. Again - I am not disounting that some Armenains did commit violance and brutal acts. However - the history of predatory behavior against the Armenians - in this region and elsewhere predates this time and was of greater intenisty and was much more common. Throughout the mid-late 19th century we see numorous petetions to the Sultan and eventually to outside powers such as Russia for relief of these sort of preditations against the Armenians. There was a clear and prevelant pattern of such that drove Armenians to look ofr relief and drove some Armenians to radical action.

And SillylookingFez - we see your threat - same as your forefathers made to the Armenians for being "uppity" in asking for relief from their mistreatment. You laugh and joke about such things - but to us they are very real and painful - perhaps AmericanTurk can understand this as making light of such things - our familiy's pain - should be insulting and hurtful to him as well.

Winoman ! Lets just get be honest one second and logically!

Even you cant say no and prevent the deaths of children, men in Irak. you cant even say this in this time NOW. how can you say and support the genocide (I DONT BELIEVE) that was in the past. Your respect must be to whole human being in the World that why we borned for... is this right when only comes to your nation.. Why turkey doesnt work with this kind of boolxxxx? Was Turkey the first one make war in that time? What about the other countries ex France didnt they take lands from another nations. Did they lived in somewhere where they put their ass when the borned ?

Be honest winoman ... i dont care your history information maybe good or not ... But dont blame us with the past ... Because the history should be only used for learn something...

[winoman]

Look Fez - its not my problem that you don't believe it was Genocide - as everything points to the fact that it was. The definition of Genocide was specifically coined by Lemkin based on his study of the Turks efforts to annihilate the Armenians. The CUP (Enver in particualr) was driven by Pan-Turanist ambition - and Armenians didn't fit into that plan - they also made an easy scapegoat for the failed policies and deteriorating conditions in the Empire. The fact that other minorities had not only successfully rebeled and broke away - but that Armenians had been petitioning for outside relief - well they were a thorn in the CUPs side and there was great dislike and envy of them by many Turks as they were seen to be prospering during the times where Turkish fortunes were at a low ebb (following me so far)...many studies have been conducted examining this history and seeking to understand why (and how) the CUP came to do what it did - the parallels with the NAZIs in post war (WWI) Germany are striking. Both were radical revolutionary parties that sought to overthrow the old order and establish a new one along radical racial lines - both sought to remove economic power from upstart minorities and scapegoat them for the problems of the nation - both decided upon and enacted policies of extermination - this is waht happend - whether you approve or not. There was no Armenian rebellion of any consequence - it just did not happen. There was more violence occuring on the part of Kurds against Armenains then the other way arond - and the Genocide was enacted centrally by the CUP who used the most extreme and dispicable means to carry it out - this is just fact.

Turks could learn a great deal from this history that could benefit them today - allowing them (you) to grow from toddler stage - culture/society wise to grown up. And there are certainly lessons for us all - lessons that were not learned in WWII or Bosnia or Grenada and who knows where else in the furute. Yes the Western powers are much to blame for allowing it to happen - at least not to be rectified - but you cannot blame Turkey's entry into the war on Western influence - but on CUP ambition.

[winoman]

More Turk racism and actions by the Republic to rid itself of minorities

From 2000 - exerpts - note Jews were targeted just as much as Armenians and Greeks - and looky at the time - 1943 - facism and Anti-semitism were in style weren't they?

By Suzan Fraser,
Associated Press writer

Ankara, Turkey.- "Hayim Alaton, a wealthy Jewish businessman, was among hundreds of people sent by Turkey to a forced labor camp in 1943 because they could not pay astronomical taxes imposed on minorities. [...] (my note - true number was well into the thousands...)

An award-winning Turkish film focusing on that period is now forcing the country to confront its treatment of non-Muslim minorities, dwindling comminities that once dominated Istanbul.

The film, "Salkin Hanim's Necklace", is based on a popular novel by lawmaker Yilmaz Karakoyunlu, and has led to televised debates on a subject long-ignored. Newspapres have urged the government to apologize. Pres. S.Demirel this year broke tradition by releasing a Christmas message to the Greek, Armenian and Assyrian communities, the first time a Turkish leader has acknowledged a non-Muslim holiday."I believe that (the film) has accomplished an important job by bringing back on the agenda a dark, black page of our recent history", commentator Mustafa Armagan wrote in Zaman. [...]

The film focuses on a time during WW2 when cash-strapped government imposed massive taxes on non-muslim minorities, who for centuries had dominated commerce in Turkey. The taxes were aimed not only at boosting government revenues but at crushing the minority communities and giving Muslims a chance to buy their businesses at cut rates.

A "Citizen, speak Turkish!" campaign that begun after the state was formed in 1923 forced minority groups to abandon their languages in favor of Turkish. Armenians, Greeks or Jews riding buses, for instance, would be reprimended by others for not speaking Turkish.

The film telle the story of a wealthy Jew who converted to Islam and his Armenian brother-in-law, who sell all they have in a vain effort to pay their taxes. When they fail to raise enough money, they are sent to a camp in Askale where some 1,300 Jews, Armenians and Greeks were forced to work for almost no pay. [...] The film won five awards, including best movie, at Turkey's Antalya film festival.[...]

Jews in Turkey numbered 100.000 at the turn of the century; they now number 25,000.

More than a million left after the creation of the republic. Thousands more fled after Sept. 1955, when Turkish nationalists burned churches and looted shops...[...]

The Armenian community, once prominent in eastern Turkey and estimated at 2 million people, now numbers just 50,000 to 70,000. During WW1, hundreds of thousands were killed or died in what Armenians say was a planned genocide.[...]

"Although minority members have throughout the years declared themselves to be Turkish, Turks did not think they were sincere," said Ridvan Akar, journalist and author on minorities. [...] Turks consider them foreigners even though their families have lived in Turkey for centuries. Turkish law for example, still bars minorities from the civil service, the standing army's officer corps and the military academy."

[Gunner14]

Have you guys noticed, whenever a "pro-Turkey" argument is made its followed with

..."go check the Russian, French and German archives." Why don't they ever say "go check the Turkish archives?"

I'll tell you why, because the government forbids any research of its archives unless the material is sensored.

Bernard Lewis, the idiot (God Rest his soul), who was a huge anti-armenian had to do all of his research on the Genocide in Russian archives. the truth is right there, but no one is allowed to look at it.

Unbeleivable, the injustices live on.

"The world is full of evil, not because of those who do it, but because of those who look on and do nothing!"