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Hitler and the Armenian Genocide

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  • Hitler and the Armenian Genocide

    While I do not believe it makes any real difference if Hitler knew about and mentioned the Armeiain Genocide for any proof of the genocide (it is irrelevant - it does not require affirmation by Hitler - etc) - this is not the issue - though it is frequently construed by deniers to be such. The issue of concern is the role of the Armenain Genocide in inspiring other like genocides - such as the Holocaust - and the importance of understanding how alowing the perprtrators to deny and evade justice can only encourage more of such action - (along the lines of "we shall never forget" and "for history to not repeat itself" - etc) - I think there is a perponderounce of evidence that in fact Hitler was very aware of the Armenain Genocide and that in fact it is very likely he made the quote refering to the Armenians in a speech before his military officers prior to invading Poland. I did research on this issue 5-6 years ago and wrote some short pieces on this subject at the time. I will repost some of them in this forum.

  • #2
    Hitler did mention the Armenians

    There is sufficient evidence available to accept – with reasonable accuracy (as reasonable as any acceptance of someone’s eyewitness accounts etc.) that in fact Hitler did say “After all, who remembers now the extermination of the Armenians?” (or something in German which translates to such).

    First, all accounts of this speech (or possibly/likely two speeches) are taken from notes of those who were present. The speech(s) were apparently not scripted. Each version has core common elements with varying degrees of detail and emphasis. The “Lochner” version with the Armenian reference is the most detailed transcription. While it was not accepted as direct evidence at Nuremberg – it was very well known and was accepted by members of the prosecution team as accurate and legitimate. (This has been attested to in interviews). Additionally, the intermediary who delivered the speech to Lochner (as well as Lochner himself) was/were interviewed (at Nuremberg) under oath and they attested to the accuracy and source. The prosecution team accepted these facts.

    The reason(s) the document was not submitted as evidence during the trial are two fold. First – the discovery of two versions of notes of the speeche(s) by the US Army (directly from German officers) – each containing the incriminating passages the prosecutors were looking for – and these made the “Lochner” version unnecessary. The other versions contained sufficient proof of pre-meditated aggression against the Poles to make the prosecutions case. These versions had no issues of concern as to source (even if the “Lochner” version had been proven such to the satisfaction of the prosecution) thus were less likely to be potentially challenged on a technicality – and the Nuremberg prosecutors wanted to limit any challenges of evidence. So, while they fully accepted the veracity of the Lochner version, it became unnecessary, thus was not included as direct evidence.

    The second point regarding this document is that Lochner delivered a copy of the translation to the British Embassy in Berlin in 1939 and it exists in the British diplomatic Archives dated as such. To believe that either the Germans or the British somehow colluded (with Armenians or Armenian sympathizers) to include a non-existent reference regarding the extermination of the Armenians at this time is simply ludicrous and unbelievable. (where is the motivation and how did/would the Armenians be able to do such?) In fact, the “Lochner” document was the first and is still the most complete account of Hitler’s speech (s) to the Supreme Commanders and Commanding Generals, Obersalzberg, August 22, 1939. The Nuremberg prosecutors realized and accepted this.

    Comment


    • #3
      Bardakjians book (which I have BTW) presents sufficient evidence

      In his 1985 book “Hitler and the Armenian Genocide” Dr K.B. Bardakjian thoroughly establishes the credibility of Hitler’s statement “After all, who remembers now the extermination of the Armenians?” (note: we often see this quote stated in slightly different manner due to latitudes in the translation from the German – however, the gist of the quote is accurate in all versions) Additionally (and in doing so) Dr Bardakjain illustrates Hitler’s knowledge of the Armenian Genocide, through:

      1) his trusted advisor Max Erwin von Scheubner-Richter (stationed in Turkey during WWI),

      2) as a result of the Tehlirian trial for the murder of Talat (which was held with much fanfare in Berlin in 1921 while Hitler was also there), and

      3) through general knowledge of the plight of the Armenians in WWI which was well known by the Germans as a result of the hundreds of correspondences and publicity from Turkey to this regard during the First World War.

      The following is an excerpt from the “Contents of Speech to the Supreme Commanders and Commanding Generals, Obersalzberg, August 22, 1939” which I have constructed based on one of the translations of the text of the original document delivered to Louis Paul Lochner days after the Speech. Lochner, an American Journalist in Germany with well known ties to the German resistance (to the Nazis) was known to have passed on many accurate German military and policy documents to the Americans and British in the early part of the war. He was present, and was interviewed (under oath) concerning the validity of the document, at the Nuremberg trials after the war and he testified that his source, Hermann Maassz had passed onto him a number of documents during these period which were all accurate and useful. The originator of the text is (with some certainty) thought to be Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, head of the Abwehr, Hitler’s military intelligence, who was witnessed (by another German officer at the speech – who later testified to this) too be taking notes. These two, who were horrified by its contents, conspired to preserve the notes and pass a copy along to other members of the German resistance. While the original notes have been lost – various translations and subsequent versions are known to be in existence. (and their source with Adm Canaris has been independently verified by Winfried Baumgart, a well known researcher in Nazi documents) One of these translations (from which I quote) now resides in the American Archives.

      “Our strength consists of our speed and in our brutality. Genghis Khan led millions of women and children to slaughter – with premeditation and a happy heart. History sees in him solely the founder of a state.”

      “I have issued a command….that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my death-head (SS) formations in readiness…with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?”

      “Poland will be depopulated and then settled by the Germans.”

      “The little states cannot scare me. Since Kemal’s death Turkey is being governed by cretins and semi-idiots.”

      “Be tough! Be without compassion! Act more quickly and more brutally than the others! The citizens of western Europe must shudder in horror.”

      “The new method of conducting war corresponds to the new draft of the frontiers….”


      And there you have it – what I consider to be the relevant passages (I ommited his whole litany of charges against a variety of European states - Hitler being Hitler of course...). I shall follow with some further posts of Herr Hitler acknowledging his knowledge of the Armenian situation (and he and other Nazi’s expressing racists thoughts against Armenians) etc.

      Comment


      • #4
        More statements that indicate the Nazis were aware of Armenians and the Genocide

        Alferd Rosenberg, Chief ideologist of Nazism (the German Gokalp) stated: “Armenians are even worse than Jews” and called Jews and Armenians “the people of the wastes”

        Hitler is quoted as saying: “Considering that only a pure consciousness of racism can ensure the survival of our race, we were constrained to introduce racial legislation in such a clear way that such legislation could eliminate all alien racial infection, and this infection is not caused only by Jews. In enlightening the German people with regard to this racial legislation, we should conceive of it as having the task of protecting the German blood from contamination, not only of the Jewish but also of the Armenian blood”

        Seems strange that he would single out the Armenians – but like you said FJ – there is much in common between the two peoples and the Nazi’s were into this Eugenics thing where they measured characteristics (& twisted them around something fierce)

        Hitler also is quoted as saying: “One of the most famous examples is the downfall of that people who were once so proud, the Persians, who now lead a pitiful existence as Armenians”

        Apparently Hitler believed that Armenians were once the original Persians – and although they were clearly “Caucasian” they had fallen low by blending with Semitic peoples etc. – thus he saw Armenians as somehow “fallen” Caucasians.

        It is also interesting how the Nazis saw Pan-Turanism as a threat (and of course an inspiration). Remember – it was the Nazis who returned Talat’s body in 1943 – attempting to curry favor with the Turks (many of whom were very interested in sharing Hitler’s vision). At the same time, the Nazi’s wished to use Pan-Turanist aspirations of the Turks to draw of Russian divisions in defense of the Caucuses (which never materialized) they were fearful of the potential for Pan-Turanism.

        On 8 May 1942 Rosenburg, then minister of Axis occupied territories in the east reported on a series of discussions with Hitler:

        “The Fuehrer…asked my opinion about the Armenians. I stated that Armenia was the best bolt between Turkey and the Aserbeidschan and thus could stop a Pan-Turanism movement towards the East. Generally speaking the Armenian people themselves are stationary, a people of farmers who had considerable industrial skill.”

        Thus, the Nazi’s schemed both with the Turks (Ultimately unsuccessful due to considerable U.S. and British pressure) while fearing the potential competition of Pan-Turanism.


        Adolph Hitler interview with Richard Breiting (who was poisoned by the Gestapo in 1937) , editor of Leipziger Neueste Nachrichten (a German daily newspaper) 4 May 1931: (excerpts)

        “We must already be thinking of resettlement of millions of men from Germany and Europe. Migrations of people have always taken place”

        “Are we really going to remain a nation of have-nots forever?” “ We have the capacity to rouse and lead the masses against this situation.”

        “We intend to introduce a great resettlement policy;”

        In 1923 little Greece could resettle a million men. Think of the biblical deportations and the massacres of the Middle Ages and remember the extermination (some texts translate as eradication) of the Armenians (some texts translate as Armenia).”

        Comment


        • #5
          Hitler thought of Armenains as downfallen Persians!

          Hitler to Admiral Horthy (Hungrian regent)

          " Where the jews were left to themselves, as for instance in Poland, the most terrible misery and decay prevailed. They are just pure parasites. In Poland this state of affairs had been fundamentally cleared up. If the jews there did not want to work, they were shot. If they could not work, they had to succumb. They had to be treated like tuberculosis bacilli, with wich a healthy body may become infected. This was not cruel. If one remembered that even innocent creatures of nature, such as hares and deer, have to be killed, so that no harm is caused by them. Why should the beasts who wanted to bring us Bolshevism be spared more ? Nation which did not rid of themselves of Jews, perished. One of the most famous example of this was the downfall of a people who were once so proud -PERSIANS, WHO NOW LEAD A PITIFULL EXISTENCE AS ARMENIANS[82] "

          ( source : THE HOLOCAUST: The Jewish tragedy by Martin Gilbert: p556) The original is in the Holocaust Museum

          Comment


          • #6
            Hitler interview with Richard Breiting - 1931

            in his 1931 interview with Richard Breiting of the Leipziger Neueste Nachrichten Hitler invoked the destruction of the Armenians within a context of deportation, resettlement, and massacre as a means to providing "living space" for Germany and the Aryan race.

            "Think of the biblical deportations and the massacres of the Middle Ages . . . and remember the extermination of the Armenians." Hitler added: "One eventually reaches the conclusion that masses of men are mere biological plasticine."

            (source:Holocaust and Genocide Studies, Vol. 9, Number 1, Spring 1995, pages 1-22)"

            Comment


            • #7
              Please let me write something on it...

              It is natural to assume that Hitler spoke to his generals on that day in his and their native tongue, German. The Nuremberg documents are the only authoritative and authentic sources.

              At the Nuremberg tribunal there were three authentic versions of the records of the Hitler's meeting with his generals, although no official minutes exist. All three versions are similar in content. William L. Shirer in "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" states as follows:

              "At Nuremberg there was some doubt about a fourth account of Hitler's speech listed as N.D. C-3., and though it was referred to in the proceedings, the prosecution did not submit it in evidence. While it undoubtedly rings true, it may have been embellished a little by persons who were not present at the meeting at the Berghof".

              In several publications Armenian activists refer to the fabricated Hitler statement about Armenians and quote it as "exhibit US-28 of the Nuremberg Tribunal" to mislead the unsuspecting public as if it were authentic and credible. They obviously fail to indicate that exhibit US-28 was not introduced as evidence by the prosecution because of lack of proof of its authenticity and was not preserved in the records of the trials. This is the record Shirer refers to as being "embellished by persons who were not present at the meeting at the Berghof". Neither of the two versions of the records introduced as evidence in Nuremberg nor the notes kept by General Franz Halder who was present at the meeting, contain any reference to Armenians.

              This quotation, and indeed an entire text of a Hitler speech purportedly made at Obersalzberg on August 22, 1939, was first published in 1942 in a book entitled "What About Germany?" authored by Louis Lochner.


              Lochner cited an unnamed informant as his source for a document called "Contents of Speech to the Supreme Commanders, and Commanding Generals, Obersalzberg, August 22, 1939". He further stated that he obtained a copy of this speech one week prior to Hitler's 1939 invasion of Poland. This "document," the origin of which has never been disclosed, investigated, and much less established, is the sole source of Hitler's purported remark regarding the Armenians.


              It is interesting to note that, in Lochner's unnamed informant's documents, there is

              not a single direct or implied reference to the Jewish people. The statement referred to Hitler's impending invasion of Poland and to the fate he envisioned for its citizenry; it had absolutely nothing to do with his plans for the Jews of Europe.

              The Nuremberg transcripts, however, clearly demonstrate that the tribunal rejected Lochner's version of Hitler's Obersalzberg speech in favor of two more official versions found in confiscated German military records. These two records are, respectively, the detailed notes of the August 22, 1939 meeting taken down by Admiral Hermann Boehm, Chief of the High Seas Fleet, who was in attendance (Document No. 798-PS) and a memorandum in two parts which provides a detailed account of Hitler's August 22, 1939, remarks at Obersalzberg (Document No. 1014-PS).


              This second document originated in the Chief of the High Command of the Armed Forces files and was captured by American troops at Saalfelden in Austria. This was the chief document introduced by the prosecution at Nuremberg as evidence in the course of the session concerned with the invasion of Poland.


              These two versions are in fact preserved in the transcripts of the Nuremberg Tribunal and are internally consistent with each other regarding the wording of Hitler's Obersalzberg speech. It is important to note that none of these eyewitness versions contain any reference whatsoever to Armenians.


              In addition, a third eyewitness account of the Obersalzberg meetings is found in the detailed diary kept by General Franz Halder. His notes, which were not submitted as evidence at the Nuremberg Tribunal, also do not contain any reference to Armenians.


              A story in the Times of London on November 24, 1945 based on a "leaked document" on the assumption that it would be introduced as evidence by the time the story broke, made reference to the Armenians in Hitler's statement. The document which was provided to the prosecution by "an American newspaperman", is the source of the alleged Hitler statement on Armenians. However, this document was not introduced as evidence, after the original minutes of the Obersalzberg meeting were found.


              The results of the erroneous Times of London story were far reaching. The world has been misled by Armenians since then, into thinking that the Nuremberg transcripts contained the quote attributed to Hitler; "Who still speaks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians"? Armenian spokesmen have been free to argue that Adolf Hitler justified his planned annihilation of the Jews on the world's failure to react to the alleged Ottoman genocide of the Armenians during the First World War.


              In truth, no document containing the purported Hitler statement on the Armenians was introduced or accepted as evidence in the course of the Nuremberg trials. The Nuremberg transcripts through their preservation of Document Numbers 798-PS and 1014-PS and the notes of Admiral Boehm, demonstrate that the alleged statement is conspicuously absent from Hitler's remarks. The assertion that Hitler made a reference to the Armenians in any context whatsoever is completely without foundation.


              Yet Prof. Richard Hovannisian and a host of other Armenian spokesmen have been planting this statement into the minds of Canadian and U.S politicians during the last two decades. A significant portion of Armenian propaganda efforts has been devoted to establishing a linkage between their own historical experiences and those of European Jewry during the Second World War. The cornerstone in their case has long been the spurious Hitler quote, "Who, after all, speaks today of the extermination of the Armenians?"


              For a detailed analysis of the Nuremberg Trials records regarding this false statement that is attributed to Hitler, please refer to "The U.S. Congress and Adolf Hitler on the Armenians" by Prof. Heath W. Lowry, Political Communication and Persuasion, Volume 3, Number 2, 1985.

              Comment


              • #8
                Yeah - nice try.

                I clearly explained why the "Lochner" version wasn't used - the other two versions were obtained directly from German officers and contained the incriminating evidence the prosecution needed (regarding pre-meditated actions in Poland) - thus why introduce evidence that can be challenged concerning how it was obtained? As the Artmenian issue was a side thing - not central to anything really - it was not transcribed by some of the note takers (who may not have even been at the second speech where the words were used BTW) - and it certainly had no bearing for the prosecution.

                The "Lochner version" was considered authentic by Nuremburg prosecuters who interviewed numerous persons under oath concerning its authenticity.

                It is incredulous for anyone to make the claim of some far reaching Armenain propoganda effort in 1939 or 1945 that would have inserted such - I mean give me a break!

                Some people do not understand the quote was in reference to invading Poland (and removing Poles from their lands and replacing them with Germans!) - and ascribe the speech as something directly implicating the move to exterminate Jews. Obviously there is indirect linkage - but the plan to remove Jews from their land and replace them with Germans is certainly related to the plan to Germanify Germany....Juden Fre as it were....

                And the evidence of Hitler's knowledge of the Armenain Genocide is clear - he was in Berlin in 1921 where the Telherian trial was a huge sensation the biggest media event of its time in Berlin - still fresh from defeat of WWI and concerning the conduct of its military in Germany (this was a big issue - the fear of tying the Germans to the Genocide...) And Hitler is quoted in other sources as mentioning the Genocide and Armenians. There can be no doubt that Hitler understood the connection and success of the Turkish policy to Turkify Anatolia and his move against Poland and his plans to move Poles out and Germans in clearly has its roots in Turkey's efforts to do the same (which likewise were inspired in part by like German efforts prior to this time) - some very interesting connections in this regard. Anyway - the quote is real - to suggest an Armenain conspiracy to place the quote - I mean during WWII? I mean after all - who (besides Hitler) was even thinking about the Armenians? (and you can quote me on that one - I said it fer sure!)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by winoman
                  There is sufficient evidence available to accept – with reasonable accuracy (as reasonable as any acceptance of someone’s eyewitness accounts etc.) that in fact Hitler did say “After all, who remembers now the extermination of the Armenians?”
                  Is there a yawn icon? Alas no.

                  There is no evidence at all that Hitler said any such thing. I am not even going to bother reading your tedious stuff. But, doubtlessly, some of the new Turkish "friends" on this forum will post their equally tedious stuff proving he didn't say it. And somewhere along the way (such as at the very start) one obvious fact will be lost sight of - the fact that the Armenian Genocide WAS A REALITY IN THE EYES OF EVERY 1920s POLITICIAN IN EUROPE AND AMERICA.
                  Last edited by bell-the-cat; 05-11-2005, 03:02 PM.
                  Plenipotentiary meow!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yes I agree with bell-the-cat. The statement attributed to Hitler is sketchy at best and as far as I can tell, and I have delved into this particular point, I have not found any contemporary evidence to suggest Hitler ever said such a thing.
                    Achkerov kute.

                    Comment

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