A Turk's eloquent call for Genocide recognition

[Thai-Samurai]

Why you are omitting the points of "the polish,algerian,chinese,africans,or caucasian peoples.... You suppose that the only people massacred are Armenians in the history!

You must have won a whole bunch of debate tournaments and stuff. You're like a world class debater. That was such a good point. I am beginning to question everything I know because of what you said.

[TomServo]

I was reading an Armenian Genocide book and it had a list of 100+ writers and scholars who have recognized the genocide. I was very surprised to see two names on that list. One was Arthur Miller, a writer who I admire enormously. The other was Harold Pinter, another acclaimed dramatist/playwright. I didn't think that they would even know about the genocide.

[winoman]

Arthur Miller is a well known human rights advocate. His play the Crucible - ostensibly about the Salem Witch trials concerns itself with a reactionary majority that controls state power and is fearful of losing their absolute hold on such that responds by persecuting and relieving of their wealth a previously put down minority that was comming into its own...hm sound familiar? yeah Arthur Miller very much apreciated the Armenians plight...

[shasa]

This is exactly no genocide recognition!

Armenians' argument is that it was a genocide intending to remove a race...

Turks' official argument is that it was a reciprocal murders or massacres in war times...

Altan is accepting murder of innocent armenians...Yes this is true...But,the description of genocide is not limited to "massacre or murder of innocent people".If it was so,the history would be one that full of "genocides".In particular,those commited by "Britain,France,The USA,Italy,Spian,Portuguese and Dutch... " While they were treating other races like "animals"... Ottoman lands were a kind of shelter for many races.But,what did this races then?

They collaborated with these "colonial powers to end the existence of the Ottoman Empires.And,you -that ottomans had seen the most loyal to the empire ,that had occupying many positions (even ...as being viziers) in the Palace- did what.... other than trachery in the most hard-times of the Ottomans... You were used like a puppet by our foes... And,you were brushed aside by them... Now,the blame is on us! No,is not also on you,but only on "Empires acknowledging that they had used "insiders" and "instigated nationalist instincts... Open your eyes for the blame... you are loving the ones that caused your misseries... (please don't say ridiculuous things like.... "we were innocent and good mans...We had no links with "colonialists"... We did anything against Ottamans other than being loyalist... But,suddenly,we were massacred!)

If armenians asked us to accept misery and pains of armenians,we could accept this.But,you,armenians, are coming up and dictating us that you commited the crime of genocide...

The history of human beings is full of massacres and pains.Hundreds of thousands of innocent Algerians were butchered by France that you love most! Dou you know the number of massacred innocent Polish people!Dou you know the missery of the deported races that were reallocated by Stalin!

And,on the other hand,Koizumi or all PM's acknowledges the missery,massacre,murder of a great numbers of Koreans and Chinese... Is this a confession for "genocide"?

You miss a point:
The point that we like to talk about turks doesn't mean that we like to talk with turks. Recognize the genocide or get lost!

[bell-the-cat]

hahhahahaha - Nogales was an officer in the Ottoman forces who led the attack on Van. You cannot claim he is an enemy of Turkey - he volunteered to fight on Turkey's behalf and he did so with distinction...he was just disgusted by what he saw - the corruption and the barbarity of the genocide. His account is an autobiography of his 4 years o f service from 1915-1919 - he was there - he saw - he was a confident of those who purpotrated the crimes! Read the book before you condemn it!

"Led the attack" It's not surprising that you feel an affinity to that boastful manipulative charlatan Nogales. The number of Turkish troops he claims he "led" increases with each of his three books!

Nor did he volunteer, he did it for the money. And he wrote the "4 years" book for the money as well. And also to whitewash his own involvement in the genocide. That book, and the other two by Nogales contain much useful incidental detail on the Genocide, but they should not be considered eyewitness accounts.

[bell-the-cat]

One was Arthur Miller, a writer who I admire enormously. The other was Harold Pinter, another acclaimed dramatist/playwright. I didn't think that they would even know about the genocide.

Why do you think that they would not have even known about the genocide? I suggest that you, and Armenians like you, cease behaving in such a patronising way to non-Armenians.

[winoman]

I am not familiar with any charges that Nogales was involved in the genocide. Certainly he is an apoligist for both the Turks in general and the army specifically. Many of his other accounts are somewhat suspect as it is obvious that he is parroting Turks - but other accounts are obviously first hand observations and though a bit of a strange bird its obvious that he has a great deal of sympathy for Armenain victims (though not Armenians in general) and quite a bit of justified contempt for the perpetrators of the Genocide. I think that there is a great deal of valid and useful observations in his book on the Genocide. And if he reports accuratly he did lead the (failed) assault on Van. I think his account of the battle and the horrible behaviors of the Turks in destroying surrounding villages and killing Armenians - aparently without provocation - is invaluable.

[winoman]

I find it telling (in terms of a personality trait) that Bell the Cat seemingly can find fault with every single notable scholar or commentator concerning the Genocide. Aparently only he is qualified as the expert it seems.

[bell-the-cat]

Sadi - your contentions are false and your hysteria on this matter is troubling. Open you mind and heart and understand what happened - at least try...

His contention was not false. He may be pointing it out for the wrong reason but he was correct in saying that Ahmet Altan did not say that the
the masacres were genocidal in intent. Altan, in fact, said the exact opposite: "this word is not that important for me, even though it has significance in politics and diplomacy".

The recognition of the reason behind the massacres is at least as important as recognising that the massacres took place. Actually, I think that it is far more important, because all those murdered are dead and can't come back. And all the actual killers are dead and can't be punished. But the reason for the killing still exists in the Turkish psyche (and in the psyche of other nations as well) like a dormant virus, and it can still be resurrected and used as a reason for yet more killings.

[bell-the-cat]

I am not familiar with any charges that Nogales was involved in the genocide..

Read his other books. President Wilson wanted him prosecuted for war crimes. Other wanted him prosecuted for complicity in the deaths of American citizens and destruction of American property in Van. After Wilson's death things were OK - he says he was an old friend of the president who succeeded Wilson - and he was able to live in America. The book was written to whitewash his reputation