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government decree for deportation.

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  • #11
    Originally posted by karakitap
    Well, I am ready to accept the genocide if there is a cable of Talat Pasa ordering the extermination of Armenians or such certain evidence. It is a shame for us if so. I just want to learn neutrally.
    Talat was tried in Turkey and found guilty. He fled Turkey to escape prison. So, evidence against Talat and Enver must have been admitted at that trial. Also, the trial of Soghomon Tehlirian, who shot Talat dead in Lisbon, became known as the trial of Talat Pasha. In other words, the defense couldn't prove that Tehlirian did not shoot Talat but they could prove that it was his duty to do so. After all, who would prosecute a Jew who killed Hitler? So Tehlirian was equited on the grounds of overwhelming evidence that Talat and gov. of Young Turks (YT) orhestrated the Genocide of Tehlirian's people. So that trial should also have many articles of evidence linking Talat and YTs to the Genocide. Also, as you'll see on the website, the massacres and deportations starting in 1915 were the prologue to massacres of Armenian, Greek and other Christian minorities perpetrated by Sultan Abdul Hamid II, known for such crimes as the Red Sultan (not an Armenian coined phrase btw).
    Last edited by karoaper; 06-20-2005, 03:12 PM.

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    • #12
      Originally posted by karakitap
      Well, I am ready to accept the genocide if there is a cable of Talat Pasa ordering the extermination of Armenians or such certain evidence. It is a shame for us if so. I just want to learn neutrally.
      There are a great number of such cables. I suggest reading the preceedings of the Post War ottoman Military Tribunals. Much of the convictions of the CUP members was based upon cables that were recovered from regional CUP and Ottoman government officials who had kept such for their own protection (to show that they were only following orders from Talat or the CUP central commitee) - even when such orders also carried with it instructions that they were to be destroyed. The CUP party aparatus and the Ottoman government both had extensive networks of agents and trusted personel who delivered orders contray to those produced for publi (foreign) consumption. Again - though they attempted secrecy and the ability to deny and hide what was being directed a great deal of this information came to light immediatly following the war. And in addition to the actual cables are numerous accounts - mainly by ex CUP officials - in their memoirs mostly - where they describe these orders and their (and others) actions to carry them out.

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      • #13
        Originally posted by karoaper
        Turkey’s Minister of Interior, Talaat Pasha, cables to the Aleppo Prefecture the confirmation of the previously transmitted order for removal of Armenians and their final elimination. The original of this cable is reproduced in the book of A. Andonian "The Memoirs of Naim Bey (The Genocide of the Armenians by the Turks). With a New Preface by the Armenian Historical Association", Documentary Series, Vol. I, Great Britain, Reprint 1964, 83 pp. Exhibit No. 3 at the trial of Soghomon Tehlirian, authenticated by the German Court. (At a trial before a Berlin court in 1921, following the assassination of Talaat by Tehlirian, Tehlirian was acquitted by the Court because of the circumstances.)
        The authenticity of the so-called "Andonian documents" have been questioned. That those questioning their authenticity are mostly Turks is irrelevant since those that always quote them are Armenian. No neutral party has examined them, to my knowledge. They should be considered, and avoided, as a probably spurious sideline to the main issue - like just like the alleged Hitler statement. And anyone who thinks that Armenians don't engage in forging documents need only look at the 1960s case of the forgeries made out to be letters by Arshile Gorky. Letters in which he is made to pronounce page after page of nationalistic garbage. They were all, last month, reprinted in Armenia, presented as if they were genuine and without a word that all these letters are now accepted as fakes manufactured by Karlen Mouradian. It would be laughable if it weren't so pathetic: fake letters, written in English, purporting to be translations of Armenian originals, retranslated back into Armenian!

        Originally posted by karoaper
        The removal of the Armenian population of Kharput and Trebizond vilayets are commenced by the Turkish army. Photocopy of the original deportation order (written in old Turkish with Arabic characters) is to be found in the Archives of the United States State Department in Washington, DC.

        http://www.armenocide.am/gen_chronology.htm
        And in 90 years no one has bothered to make a copy of it, or translate it?
        Plenipotentiary meow!

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        • #14
          Talat Pasha says in the telegraph, not to move other people than Gregorian Armenians.He says not to move other christian people and catholic and orthodox armenians..

          Are you sure the original telegrap includes order of killing? Telegraph points the Gregorian Armenians, but does it adress to destroy them, or does it try to ensure that officials will not move other people but only the Gregorian Armenians.
          Because Talat mentioned Gregorians to be moved, and because later some amount of emigrants died, does it mean Talat killed them?

          For your sayings about official telegraphs, this is what is said as reply in Turkey.

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          • #15
            Originally posted by winoman
            There are a great number of such cables. I suggest reading the preceedings of the Post War ottoman Military Tribunals. Much of the convictions of the CUP members was based upon cables that were recovered from regional CUP and Ottoman government officials who had kept such for their own protection (to show that they were only following orders from Talat or the CUP central commitee) - even when such orders also carried with it instructions that they were to be destroyed. The CUP party aparatus and the Ottoman government both had extensive networks of agents and trusted personel who delivered orders contray to those produced for publi (foreign) consumption. Again - though they attempted secrecy and the ability to deny and hide what was being directed a great deal of this information came to light immediatly following the war. And in addition to the actual cables are numerous accounts - mainly by ex CUP officials - in their memoirs mostly - where they describe these orders and their (and others) actions to carry them out.
            So, finally, is you or anyone else is able to show me a copy of one of these telegrams that order the massacres of Armenians. I don't urge this for provocation, just I want to learn.

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            • #16
              Originally posted by karakitap
              So, finally, is you or anyone else is able to show me a copy of one of these telegrams that order the massacres of Armenians. I don't urge this for provocation, just I want to learn.
              I have hard copy of translations for several of these but not on internet or otherwise digitized. Many of the ones used by the Ottoman Military Tribunals and the ottoman Parliment were subsequantly lost (yeah imagine that) - and in fact the transcripts of the trials are incomplete - but even those have vanished from the archives and the only way we know of them is that the government press printed them vertatim (though not 100% of each trial) and these documents exist. In the testimony there are read exerpts from cables as well as summaries are presented. I believe that the British Archives (I may be mistaken there) have copies of some cables obtained form local CUP officials after the war. I haven't actually seen these cables. A number of these and other cables are widely quoted by multiple historians however.

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              • #17
                Originally posted by winoman
                I have hard copy of translations for several of these but not on internet or otherwise digitized. Many of the ones used by the Ottoman Military Tribunals and the ottoman Parliment were subsequantly lost (yeah imagine that) - and in fact the transcripts of the trials are incomplete - but even those have vanished from the archives and the only way we know of them is that the government press printed them vertatim (though not 100% of each trial) and these documents exist. In the testimony there are read exerpts from cables as well as summaries are presented. I believe that the British Archives (I may be mistaken there) have copies of some cables obtained form local CUP officials after the war. I haven't actually seen these cables. A number of these and other cables are widely quoted by multiple historians however.
                so can you send me a copy of those cables that you have please?

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                • #18
                  Re: government decree for deportation.

                  A copy of the Deportation Proclamation that was sent to the U.S. State Department by Consul Oscar Heizer who served in Trabizon is in the Appendices of the book I compiled and edited called The Slaughterhouse Province: An American Consul's Report on the Armenian Genocide. Although the book is out of print, you can find it in most university libraries.

                  I'm working on getting the book reprinted.

                  I'll see about posting the text (I hate typing, but it's for a good cause!)

                  Comment


                  • #19
                    Re: government decree for deportation.

                    Originally posted by Historian
                    I'll see about posting the text (I hate typing, but it's for a good cause!)
                    Then see about making a scan of the text. Why would you want to make a copy that would have lesser importance if you have access to the original document and can provide a facsimile copy of it, or even if it is only a facsimile copy of it it whatever book you have?

                    "Reprinting"! What an obsolete word. This is the 21st century. Nothing needs reprinting - the only reason academic books are printed is out of vanity. Place a digital copy of it on the internet so that everyone can access it freely.
                    Plenipotentiary meow!

                    Comment


                    • #20
                      Re: government decree for deportation.

                      Originally posted by bell-the-cat
                      Then see about making a scan of the text. Why would you want to make a copy that would have lesser importance if you have access to the original document and can provide a facsimile copy of it, or even if it is only a facsimile copy of it it whatever book you have?

                      "Reprinting"! What an obsolete word. This is the 21st century. Nothing needs reprinting - the only reason academic books are printed is out of vanity. Place a digital copy of it on the internet so that everyone can access it freely.
                      Is it really that much hard to show these evidences to the public? I suspect Armenians have a good skill to "reprint" those documents.

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