I have question.

[loseyourname]

Is it fair? Well it seems that it is fair and the citizens of the country that commited the crime have to pay for their countries crime.

That seems fair to you? I don't think that citizens of a country should have to pay for the crimes of past incarnations of that countries' government. Heck, it was reparations that Germany was made to pay for WWI that led to WWII. I'd say that wasn't such a good idea.

Look, sometimes you have to use some logic before making a statement and take all things into consideration instead of oversimplifyings things just to make things easy or for the sake of expediency.

Let's take North America for example. In my opinion, I think that the Native Americans should at the very least be given title and ownership of all the lands that belong to them by treaty that were not honored and if there are any white people that live there (if they decide to stay rather than move to US owned territory) should be paying their taxes to the Native Americans and not to the US government, plus all the natural resources on all those lands would belong to the Native Americans. I think that is very fair.

Wait a second. So what would the difference be? The same people are living there, presumably under the same system of government, paying the same taxes, only the government is different how? Would state officials all be Native Americans now? According to Native American tradition, nobody owns the land. Such an idea is absurd. Titles and deeds are meaningless. We use the land, and we honor it, and we share it with all the other creatures that inhabit it. But nobody owns it. The earth owns itself.

The Turks would still have plenty of land and they can relocate if they wish or they could stay and pay their taxes to the righful owners of that land etc and I think that's more than fair.

What does that mean? Pay taxes to the rightful owners? This isn't a monarchy we're talking about, where you pay tribute to the king in order that he allows you to live on his land. You pay taxes to a government that uses that money to provide services to you. So what you're saying is that you want the men who allocate funds to be Armenian rather than Turkish? Wouldn't they just be elected by the populace? If you're allowing Turks to continue to live there, don't you think they would continue to elect Turks?

However, Turkey will have to pay reperations/compensation to the Armenians and there's no two ways about that. With the reperations, Armenians can recbuild their country and people would be flocking there instead of leaving because there is no future in a tiny land locked country with no prospect of any real future.

And what happens when the reparations end? You go back to being a tiny land-locked country with no real future. Handouts don't give you a future. They just teach you to be dependent on handouts. Entrepeneurialism and industry will give you a future. Doing things yourselves. Maybe if you spent less time whining about Jewish conspiracies and learned some business skills you could go back and help build a future for your country. How do you think Jews became so powerful in the first place? It wasn't by spending all of their time on the internet looking for government handouts.

[loseyourname]

What if I want the house that belonged to my murdered grandparents but the children of the Turk that murdered my grandparents are living in it?

How on earth were your grandparents alive over eighty years ago? How old are you? The children of any Turk that was alive then would have to be sixty at least. Do you really desire to throw a senior citizen that did nothing to you on the street over your blood feud?

BTW, did you delete that thread about the Times DVD?

Yes, I did. The forum was told not to post on that topic. If you want a more in-depth explanation, PM a moderator or administrator.

[Dave]

Chico, I agree with most of what you posted. Maybe Germany had to pay billions to the Jews as it would be plain stupid to choose to pay all that money… But, why doesn’t France pay for the massacres it also committed (supposedly) against Jews and Algerians? Why is Germany the only country that pays compensations? Why are the Jews the only ones that get those compensations for something that is still denied by many?

If you burn down a whole neighborhood, you should have to compensate everyone effected even if it takes you the rest of your life to pay after all of your assets have been siezed.

That’s what I meant when I gave out the example of Greeks and Assyrians.

They're not the only one spending those millions. Anyway, who do you think is taking those millions to do the all the denying for them?

Ah yes, the ''Chosen Tribe''!

[Cinderella]

How on earth were your grandparents alive over eighty years ago? How old are you? The children of any Turk that was alive then would have to be sixty at least. Do you really desire to throw a senior citizen that did nothing to you on the street over your blood feud?

I was just giving an example. OK, my great grandparents. So is that any different? It comes to the same thing. Throw them on the street LOL, hell no. I'll send them to the US and you can give the poor soul a cosy place to live out the rest of his life or they can take them to an old folks home in Turkey.

Some Armenians still have the deeds for those houses, but it wouldn't be right to ask for the return of the stolen property right?

Yes, I did. The forum was told not to post on that topic. If you want a more in-depth explanation, PM a moderator or administrator.

I don't need an "in-depth" explanation, but I want to know if by "that topic" you mean "The Jewish Involvement in the Armenian Genocide", because it wasn't about that topic.

[Cinderella]

Chico, I agree with most of what you posted. Maybe Germany had to pay billions to the Jews as it would be plain stupid to choose to pay all that money… But, why doesn’t France pay for the massacres it also committed (supposedly) against Jews and Algerians? Why is Germany the only country that pays compensations? Why are the Jews the only ones that get those compensations for something that is still denied by many?

I think the main reason is that the allies wanted to crush Germany as much as they could. So they made up all kinds of stories about soap (which the Jews themselves admit wasn't true), lampshades (which they admitedly knew were actually goat skin even when they presented it at the Nurmberg trials, but presented them as jews anyway) and gas chambers (Which the American new at the time but they presented them as gas chambers at Dachau and claimed jews were excuted in them, but at Dachau today there are signs that say no one was ever gassed in those very same rooms) in order to make the Germans look like pure evil.

They did this to Iraq with the babies and incubator story (which turned out not to be true), plus they gave those chemical weapons to Iraq in the first place and all those dead bodies they dug up could very well have been dead Iraqis from the first aggression on Iraq by Bush senior.

They did the same thing to the Serbs on the attack on Kosovo. They claimed that 100,000 albanians were missing or killed in a genocide which also turned out not to be true and in the end they only uncovered a total of 2,500 bodies which they never identified so they could have all been Serbs for all we know. Anyway, it's a far cry from the 100,000 they lied about and NATO/US killed as many Serb civillians in their bombardment.

Getting back to Germany. Germany had to have paid a fortune in reperations as the losing party usually has to, but they wanted to really crush Germany so that it would be very difficult if not impossible for them to recover and it would take many years. The Jews saw an opportunity to cash in and the holohoax industry was born from it. That's why no one is interested today in making anyone pay for their genocides. They're not interested in putting the squeeze on or crushing countries like they did want to Germany. Their intrests are better served if the Armenians stay screwed.

[skhara]

Basically this talk of reperations is nonsense. Turks are not going to pay reparations and the only reparations that Armenians could get from Turks would be plunder -- just like Turks took 'reparations' from Armenians. Armenians need to focus on Armenia and Artsakh. Artsakh should be the number one priority. Armenians should focus on geopolitical and geostrategic interests and alliances and on prosperity of Armenia. Believe me folks, things will naturally fall into place with a strong and prosperous Armenia. Stop being such victims people, it is getting annoying. And those who say that "we can't prosper in that tiny landlocked nation, etc." Well then if that's true, there will never be any prospering. It has to start with that tiny, landlocked nation with little resources. It simply has to. You cannot go on a conquest if one hasn't solidifed the home front, and a negative population growth rate is not a solidified home front. To make things go your way you need to improve your power, no amount of whining will ever change that. Its the law of the jungle out there. MIGHT IS RIGHT is the universal law, and the sooner everyone of you accept that reality, the better.

I have a mindset that absolutely hates whining and complaining. I will never complain, ever. If there is ever an action I deem as unjust by a group or an individual against myself or those I sympothise with, all I will do, is evaluate my own position and realise that the only reason whatever injustice was done to me took place, is because that individual or that group, had the power over me. Because of the law of the jungle. Because MIGHT = RIGHT. So I would need to change the circumstances, tip the playing field, or engage in different venue in order to have strength and power on my side.

One can have their own personal morals, but they don't mean xxxx in the world out there.

Maybe if you spent less time whining about Jewish conspiracies

lose, this comment of yours really shows your lack of understanding. What some folks want to get through is not 'whining', but trying to break through to their own compatriots about whom they should not relate to, and who is in the enemy camp. So many Armenians have an obsession with Turks, and completely ignore the geostrategic formations that go on around them.

[Sip]

I bet someone could come here asking about tomato soup and the tread will turn to jew/German discussion and how much the jews hate Armenians. If that's not whining, I don't know what is.

Skhara, your post in and of itself sounds all good and fine and dandy but at some point, turning EVERYTHING into a jew thing just stops being a discussion/interesting and becomes more an obsession/annoying.

[MagieSimpson]

I bet someone could come here asking about tomato soup and the tread will turn to jew/German discussion and how much the jews hate Armenians. If that's not whining, I don't know what is.

"Life is Tough. It's tougher if you're stupid." You don't don't what whining is, but you do plenty of it yourself.

Skhara, your post in and of itself sounds all good and fine and dandy but at some point, turning EVERYTHING into a jew thing just stops being a discussion/interesting and becomes more an obsession/annoying.

"Life is Tough. It's tougher if you're stupid." Nobody told you to come here, nobody is forcing you to stay here. Facts are facts and no amount of denials or clown acts/trolling are going to minimize or distort those facts in any way.

[Anonymouse]

Jews do control the world. It's a fact. But so what if you know it? The point is, what are you going to do now that you have this information? Praxis praxis praxis! Regurgitating that Jews control the world gets redundant. I know all of the things mentioned. The point is, let's move on and do something about it.

[Cinderella]

That seems fair to you? I don't think that citizens of a country should have to pay for the crimes of past incarnations of that countries' government. Heck, it was reparations that Germany was made to pay for WWI that led to WWII. I'd say that wasn't such a good idea.

OK, so I presume you're against Germany paying the Jews also. However, I didn't make those rules/laws. The simple fact is that those are the rules of the game and that's how the game is played and we have no choice but to play the game and by those rules although I wish there was never any need for all this to begin with, but that's not the reality of it. WWI led to WWII, perhaps, but what led to WWI? The thing is that was was always about greed and nothing else as it still is today. Plundering the wealth of another country is why wars are waged. Some people say that every country has done this, but I strongly object and I don't agree.

Wait a second. So what would the difference be? The same people are living there, presumably under the same system of government, paying the same taxes, only the government is different how? Would state officials all be Native Americans now? According to Native American tradition, nobody owns the land. Such an idea is absurd. Titles and deeds are meaningless. We use the land, and we honor it, and we share it with all the other creatures that inhabit it. But nobody owns it. The earth owns itself.

But didn't you guys trade off much of your land for beads and trinkets? How does that happen when nobody owns land? Didn't you guys also sell Mahatten? How can you sell something no one owns?

Yes the state officials would be Native Americans and the non-natives would have to live by their laws/rules/code of conduct and the rules all the Native Americans live by, whether it's giving back to mother earth for what you have taken or whatever. No one is saying you will have to use the European or American system with deeds for land or whatever, but you have to draw a line in the sand somewhere, otherwise they come and harvest the crop that you sowed and tended, or maybe decide to move into the house you build and hell, maybe even have their way with your wife since people don't own people and saying "my wife" well it just sounds redicilous. As for the creatures, we'll have to discuss feril species, but I'll leave that for another time.

What does that mean? Pay taxes to the rightful owners? This isn't a monarchy we're talking about, where you pay tribute to the king in order that he allows you to live on his land. You pay taxes to a government that uses that money to provide services to you. So what you're saying is that you want the men who allocate funds to be Armenian rather than Turkish? Wouldn't they just be elected by the populace? If you're allowing Turks to continue to live there, don't you think they would continue to elect Turks?

The righful owners are the Armenian people and like everywjere in the world people pay taxes. The yaxes would be collected by an "Armenian" government and I think there would be some provisions as I don't think any Armenian would ever want to be governed by a Turk ever again. That's as stupid as asking a jew to live under Nazi rule. Are Palestinians running Israel?

And what happens when the reparations end? You go back to being a tiny land-locked country with no real future.

What makes you think reperations don't include the return of lands? We had access to three seas and we prospered plenty. That's why our country was always invaded, because we were always an industrious people who always managed to rise up from the ashes to rebuild our country and become prosperous again where plunder was the order of the day for most others "earned" a living that way. Now I know how ignorant you actually are of Armenians and the history of Armenian and you know just as little about Turks. For your information, the Turks lived off of the Armenians. They didn't know how to do anything other than plunder and steal to "rean" a living, whereas Armenians always prospered due to their industrious nature. Armenia never invaded another country for plunder, because it never needed to. Did you know that after the Armenian Genocide there was fifteen years of famin in Turkey because all the food producers were killed? Did you know that all the rich agricultural lands that were previously occupied by Armenians turned into deserts because the stupid Turks didn't understand how the complicated irrigation systems worked and didn't understand the need for irrigation?

Handouts don't give you a future. They just teach you to be dependent on handouts.

Handouts? What the hell are you talking about? The handouts are what Armenia is getting now from the US as it has been reduced to a beggar nation after all of it's wealth and resources were plundered by everyone including the Germans and the Jews. What I'm talking about is reperations as in Turkey (and others) paying for all the damage they did to our country. If you have a car and it's insured and you have an accident. Do you go to the insurance company for handouts? No, you go to them to collect what is rightfully yours and I can give you the same example if you were a victim of arson or robbery and if the arsonist or robber was caught, he would have to pay for the damages and return the stolen proprty along with a little jail time but someone with no concept of law and justice would naturally say that the victim was looking for "handouts".

On September 21, 1921. the General Assembly of the league of Nations adopted unanimously a resolution. One of the things it said in the resolution,

"Resolved, That the Assembly invites the Council, at once, to press upon the Supreme Council (Allied) the necessity of making provisions in the Treaty, safeguarding the future of Armenia, and, further, insuring for the Armenians a National Home, wholly independant of Turkish rule"

But here's the interesting part. In the end of this resolution it has a list of the natural resources of Armenia and a descrition of the availability of water etc and here is what it said in regards to the land itself and Armenias need for "handouts".

"Soil.- Rich, exept that large areas require reclamation and irrigation."

"Phisican condition.- Poor and primitive. The Turks have been there.

"Armenia can not only become self-supporting, but, like America, self sufficient. She has iron, coal, cotton, wool and the capacity to produce several times the foodstuffs she requres."

So you know where you can stick those "handouts"!

Entrepeneurialism and industry will give you a future. Doing things yourselves.

Yea and you're going to teach Armenians about entrepreneurialism and industry? Buddy, we've been doing that for thousands of years. Why do you think we were always invaded?

Maybe if you spent less time whining about Jewish conspiracies and learned some business skills you could go back and help build a future for your country.

My country happens to be occupied by Turk savages.

How do you think Jews became so powerful in the first place?

Lie, cheat and steal and causing wars with a genocide or two along the way.

It wasn't by spending all of their time on the internet looking for government handouts.

Your ignorance has taken to overwhelming. How do you think they built Israel? It was with the billions they extorted from Germany. Israel's economy had a base of $100,000,000 US in the year 2000 and the US handouts to Israel by 2000 was approximatly that amount, so basically, Israel's economy is based on the US handouts. If the Jews are so powerful and wealthy, why are they the ones always looking for handouts?

You're barking up the wrong tree and you don't know what you're talking about, so I suggest you stay out of topics that you know nothing about and stop wasting people's time with your nonsense.