Ottoman Armenians in the Collapse PEriod of the Empire...

[Fadix3]

After this post may I use the term freak instead of childish?
It seems that you concern too much about everything related Turks and Turkish history, but your problem is trying to find popular books that match with your paranoias. You can find a lot of books that claim a lot of conspiracy theories. If those popular stupid things entertain you go on, but don't expect to be taken as seriously. What kind of answer do you expect I don't know. You give the name of a book that claim a conspiracy theory and sunndenly this makes you a serious historian isntead of a childih boy? So why don't you ask yourself that your conspiracy theory is not stated as main serious history books or encyclopedias about WW2? If I would not know about WW2 your "childish" self confidence make me believe to your conspiracies because you really behave like a freak by obsessing conspiracies about Turks to support your claims. What kind of answer do you expect from me for this nonsense claim? Every serious WW2 historian claims that Turkey did its best to keep its neutrality at WW2 even against Hitler's threats. Turkish xxxs left Istanbul and escape to Anatolia for a possible German invasion, Turkish army put all of its military defense to Thrace agaisnt Germans not to Caucasia. All history books write these things but an obsessive freak suddeny find a conspiracy book and claim that "Oh Turks were ally with Nazis and preparing to invade Russia" to label Turks because of his/her obsession of Turkish hatred. How can you expect to be considered as serious person with those paranoid claims? Do you think that all WW2 experts are wrong and you are right because you have unlimited time to read popular conspiracy books and create "theories"?

I guess you have answered. Dear idiot, most, if not all, serious history Books on World War II, includes the Treaty signed between Turkey and Germany, and also that three days later Germany invaved the Soviet Union. What I have provided are based on primary evidences, a Diary, and a work including a report from a Chanceller. Do you even know who he was?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_von_Papen

Without including that he was also Ataturks friend.

Those informations are also known.

Later an agreement between NAZI Germany and Turkey was made preventing xxxish immigration to Turkey. On December 15, 1941, the ship named “Struma” with 761 xxxish passengers escaping the NAZI invasion arrives in Istanbul and asks for the authorization to cross the Bosphorus. The ship had to wait until February 24, 1942, over a month of negotiations between the allies and Turkey, requesting Turkey to permit the passage, Turkey denied access. They haven't even fed the passengers, who were dying of famine, the Ship had to return, where it was torpedoed by a submarine. One survivor. One day after, people would have expected the prime minister to apologies, but no, the then prime minister Refik Saydam, happy to respect their agreement with Germany declared: “Turkey cannot be the destination of undesirable refugees” While in 1942 NAZI Germany takes the decision to destroy the xxxs, on November 11 of the same year, Turkey come up with the Capital tax against the xxxs, Armenians and Greeks, and even propositions are made of their deportation, the capital tax was justified with this remark: “Against those who profit from the hospitality offered by this country and become wealthy, while at the same time abrogate their responsibilities at this critical moment, the law will be applied with full force”. Turkey had even plans to join Germany to invade SSR Armenia, when Germany was to take Stalingrad. A report was made regarding the xxxs, Armenians and Greeks. For the Greeks, it was written among many other things: “On the 500th anniversary of the conquest of Istanbul by the Ottoman forces, not one Greek should be left in the city.” About the Armenians: “Armenians are not assimilable and those who survive must be encouraged to depart (emigrate).” And for the xxxs: “Stop all xxxish immigration, while provoking incidents within the country with the goal of creating a xxxish exodus, keep them away from all government activity, be it financial or economic” (source: Ridvan Akar, Askale Yolculari—Varlik Vergisi ve Çalisma Kamplari (Passengers to Askale—Capitial Tax and forced labour camps), Belge Uluslararasi Yayincilik, Istanbul, 1999) In 1948, 40,000 Turkish xxxs living in Istanbul have run away in Israel. Embarrassed and exposed, Turkey was the first Muslim state to recognize Israel and thought that it would be some sort of way to apologize.

At the outbreak of the war, Turkey mined 190,000 tons of chromite, 1/5 of the world total output. (See: Turkish Foreign Policy 1943-1945: Small State Diplomacy and Great Power Politics by Edward Weisband) Those were the result of agreements between Germany and Turkey, Turkey becoming the major German supplier, of this essential material for the military. Turkey later signed another contract with Germany to provide 135,000 tones, regardless of the allies pressures to stop. The German minister of armaments and munitions declared that chromium was the element with the shortest supply, and was indispensable to a highly developed armaments industry. Turkey permitted the German armament developments, ignoring the continuous allied requests. As the German Minister for Armaments and Munitions Albert Speer confirmed when he wrote in his memoirs: "Hence the element in shortest supply is chromium. This is especially grave since chromium is indispensable to a highly developed armaments industry. Should supplies from Turkey be cut off, the stockpile of chromium is sufficient only for 5-6 months. The manufacture of planes, tanks, motor vehicles, tank shells, U-boats, and almost the entire gamut of artillery would have to cease from one to three months after this deadline, since by then the reserves in the distributions channels would be used up." He then declared that if it wasn't of Turkish supply: "no more or less than that the war would be over approximately ten months after the loss of the Balkans." (Albert Speer, Inside the Third Reich: Memoirs, translated by Richard and Clara Winston (New York and Toronto, 1970)). In short without Turkeys help, the war would have not continued more than months. I could continue and discuss regarding the “Missing xxxs” or the missing gold bars looted by NAZI Germany and transferred to Turkey.


Of course, the idiot you are, will keep repeating the same BS, about serious books, while I answer with memoirs and Diaries, which are primary sources.

Another one? Well perhaps the answer to Shaws work, claiming how Turkey defended the xxxs. Bernard Wasserstein answers with the article titled: Their Own Fault; Attempts to shift the blame for the Holocaust , published in the Times Literary Supplement (London) 1-7-94

The work includes Struma and the Capital text.

Oh and, talking of obsession, I only started researching about Turkey and World War II, after having read Ataov and many Turkish "researchers" works about a said Armeno-NAZI link.

While I answer with documentations, keep repeating words like conspiracy and childish, as I already said, such tactics may work in forums were your intellect fits.

[cumanicus]

I guess you have answered. Dear idiot, most, if not all, serious history Books on World War II, includes the Treaty signed between Turkey and Germany, and also that three days later Germany invaved the Soviet Union. What I have provided are based on primary evidences, a Diary, and a work including a report from a Chanceller. Do you even know who he was?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_von_Papen

Without including that he was also Ataturks friend.

Those informations are also known.

Later an agreement between NAZI Germany and Turkey was made preventing xxxish immigration to Turkey. On December 15, 1941, the ship named “Struma” with 761 xxxish passengers escaping the NAZI invasion arrives in Istanbul and asks for the authorization to cross the Bosphorus. The ship had to wait until February 24, 1942, over a month of negotiations between the allies and Turkey, requesting Turkey to permit the passage, Turkey denied access. They haven't even fed the passengers, who were dying of famine, the Ship had to return, where it was torpedoed by a submarine. One survivor. One day after, people would have expected the prime minister to apologies, but no, the then prime minister Refik Saydam, happy to respect their agreement with Germany declared: “Turkey cannot be the destination of undesirable refugees” While in 1942 NAZI Germany takes the decision to destroy the xxxs, on November 11 of the same year, Turkey come up with the Capital tax against the xxxs, Armenians and Greeks, and even propositions are made of their deportation, the capital tax was justified with this remark: “Against those who profit from the hospitality offered by this country and become wealthy, while at the same time abrogate their responsibilities at this critical moment, the law will be applied with full force”. Turkey had even plans to join Germany to invade SSR Armenia, when Germany was to take Stalingrad. A report was made regarding the xxxs, Armenians and Greeks. For the Greeks, it was written among many other things: “On the 500th anniversary of the conquest of Istanbul by the Ottoman forces, not one Greek should be left in the city.” About the Armenians: “Armenians are not assimilable and those who survive must be encouraged to depart (emigrate).” And for the xxxs: “Stop all xxxish immigration, while provoking incidents within the country with the goal of creating a xxxish exodus, keep them away from all government activity, be it financial or economic” (source: Ridvan Akar, Askale Yolculari—Varlik Vergisi ve Çalisma Kamplari (Passengers to Askale—Capitial Tax and forced labour camps), Belge Uluslararasi Yayincilik, Istanbul, 1999) In 1948, 40,000 Turkish xxxs living in Istanbul have run away in Israel. Embarrassed and exposed, Turkey was the first Muslim state to recognize Israel and thought that it would be some sort of way to apologize.

At the outbreak of the war, Turkey mined 190,000 tons of chromite, 1/5 of the world total output. (See: Turkish Foreign Policy 1943-1945: Small State Diplomacy and Great Power Politics by Edward Weisband) Those were the result of agreements between Germany and Turkey, Turkey becoming the major German supplier, of this essential material for the military. Turkey later signed another contract with Germany to provide 135,000 tones, regardless of the allies pressures to stop. The German minister of armaments and munitions declared that chromium was the element with the shortest supply, and was indispensable to a highly developed armaments industry. Turkey permitted the German armament developments, ignoring the continuous allied requests. As the German Minister for Armaments and Munitions Albert Speer confirmed when he wrote in his memoirs: "Hence the element in shortest supply is chromium. This is especially grave since chromium is indispensable to a highly developed armaments industry. Should supplies from Turkey be cut off, the stockpile of chromium is sufficient only for 5-6 months. The manufacture of planes, tanks, motor vehicles, tank shells, U-boats, and almost the entire gamut of artillery would have to cease from one to three months after this deadline, since by then the reserves in the distributions channels would be used up." He then declared that if it wasn't of Turkish supply: "no more or less than that the war would be over approximately ten months after the loss of the Balkans." (Albert Speer, Inside the Third Reich: Memoirs, translated by Richard and Clara Winston (New York and Toronto, 1970)). In short without Turkeys help, the war would have not continued more than months. I could continue and discuss regarding the “Missing xxxs” or the missing gold bars looted by NAZI Germany and transferred to Turkey.


Of course, the idiot you are, will keep repeating the same BS, about serious books, while I answer with memoirs and Diaries, which are primary sources.

Another one? Well perhaps the answer to Shaws work, claiming how Turkey defended the xxxs. Bernard Wasserstein answers with the article titled: Their Own Fault; Attempts to shift the blame for the Holocaust , published in the Times Literary Supplement (London) 1-7-94

The work includes Struma and the Capital text.

Oh and, talking of obsession, I only started researching about Turkey and World War II, after having read Ataov and many Turkish "researchers" works about a said Armeno-NAZI link.

While I answer with documentations, keep repeating words like conspiracy and childish, as I already said, such tactics may work in forums were your intellect fits.

Fadix, I don't have time to repeat your conspiracies. Lets agree with something.
1. You claim that there was a secret alliance between Turks and Nazis, but almost all the history books in the world claims the opposite. You may find a secret diary, but sorry guy.
2. As I understand you accuse Turkey with some sort of anti-J*w behaviours. But almost every historian in the world but you claim the opposite. Almost all history books in the world write only Turkey and Sweden helped J*ws of Europe because they stayed neutral. Israel commemorate Turkish diplomats that saved the lifes of thousands of J*wish famlys life. But I am sure you waste your time and find another secret document for the opposite.
3. Almost all history books about WW2 write how Von Papen forced and threated Turkey to be ally with Nazis and join the war but Turkey did its best and stayed neutral. But of couse all the world is wrong and a freak which obsessed with Turkish hatred is right.

Just read some books, not the popular conspiracy things but the main lines.
I really don't have more time for you Fadix. So please don't spam any more copy/paste conspiracy.

[Fadix3]

1. Such a looser. The Treaty is available through the Avalon Project at Yale Law School. Treaty of Friendship Between Germany and Turkey, June 18, 1941. It can be accessible here. http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/turger41.htm In fact Germany had all the advantages to invade Turkey, because it would have given them directly the Eastern Front, attacking the Russians by surprise, but they have signed a Treaty of Friendship instead, during the same months as the attack to capture Baku was under planning.

2- Such a looser two, that there was an anti-xxxish sentiment in Turkey during World War II, is known, the capital tax directed against the xxxs, Armenians and Greeks is pretty much known, and there I have given you a work published by a Turkish scholar as example, but there are various, various works about this, and it IS included in various history books. The same goes with Struma. Those have nothing to do with secret documents idiot.

3- Feel free to quote from a history book, which claims that Turkey was threatened and forced by Papen, to say the truth, I’d be inclined to believe that you most probably learned of the existence of the man, only after I talked about him.

As for reading books, I have read as much book about it, as you will probably read in your entire life, every subject combined.

PS: Feel free to show any copypasting job. Tanks.

Fadix, I don't have time to repeat your conspiracies. Lets agree with something.
1. You claim that there was a secret alliance between Turks and Nazis, but almost all the history books in the world claims the opposite. You may find a secret diary, but sorry guy.
2. As I understand you accuse Turkey with some sort of anti-J*w behaviours. But almost every historian in the world but you claim the opposite. Almost all history books in the world write only Turkey and Sweden helped J*ws of Europe because they stayed neutral. Israel commemorate Turkish diplomats that saved the lifes of thousands of J*wish famlys life. But I am sure you waste your time and find another secret document for the opposite.
3. Almost all history books about WW2 write how Von Papen forced and threated Turkey to be ally with Nazis and join the war but Turkey did its best and stayed neutral. But of couse all the world is wrong and a freak which obsessed with Turkish hatred is right.

Just read some books, not the popular conspiracy things but the main lines.
I really don't have more time for you Fadix. So please don't spam any more copy/paste conspiracy.

[karoaper]

How can you expect that 1940's poor Turkey can prepare to invade the Soviet superpower?
And finally how can you expect a respect since you still use the name of a respectful nation, J*ws as an insult and cencor it?

That is not why J*ew is censored, though the word judaism is synonimous to word racism in my opinion. The reason is that there were many bitter and insult-filled arguments on this forum about xxxs and their implications in Armenian Genocide as direct masters of post-Ottoman Turkey. To stop those arguments any discussion of xxxs is prohibited and so is the word. Kinda silly really.

[cumanicus]

1. Such a looser. The Treaty is available through the Avalon Project at Yale Law School. Treaty of Friendship Between Germany and Turkey, June 18, 1941. It can be accessible here. http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/turger41.htm In fact Germany had all the advantages to invade Turkey, because it would have given them directly the Eastern Front, attacking the Russians by surprise, but they have signed a Treaty of Friendship instead, during the same months as the attack to capture Baku was under planning.

2- Such a looser two, that there was an anti-xxxish sentiment in Turkey during World War II, is known, the capital tax directed against the xxxs, Armenians and Greeks is pretty much known, and there I have given you a work published by a Turkish scholar as example, but there are various, various works about this, and it IS included in various history books. The same goes with Struma. Those have nothing to do with secret documents idiot.

3- Feel free to quote from a history book, which claims that Turkey was threatened and forced by Papen, to say the truth, I’d be inclined to believe that you most probably learned of the existence of the man, only after I talked about him.

As for reading books, I have read as much book about it, as you will probably read in your entire life, every subject combined.

PS: Feel free to show any copypasting job. Tanks.

Fadix, although I am not a freak like you that obsessed with everything related Turks and did not devote my entire life with Turkish obsession I know Von Papen and WW2 history of course. Don't consider yourself some sort of researcher because this show you more childish and freak. I give an argument but you do not reply to my arguments and change the way of subject when you feel yourself uncomfortable. I don't have desire to play such games with a boy. All WW2 historians clearly say how both Germans and British forced and threathened Turkey to join the war but Turkey achieved to stay neutral. Israel commemorate Turkish diplomats that saved thousands of J*wish lives during the war and thanks Turkish government for the help to J*ws. You can not say the opposite but play rhetoric games which makes me bored.
All Europe which you are trying to imitate their behaviours and desire to be another racist group to show yourself as white is guilty with J*wish holocaust but Turkey and Sweden. Now are you trying to find a partner for your guilts with conspiracy theories? Look Fadix, you may consider this genocide game as a kind of hobby for yourself and want to find friends but I really do not have time, I have more important things to do instead of obsessing with conspiracy theories like a freak. So,

[winoman]

Cumanicus - you are showing us your historical weakness and again that you can only cling to the pro-Turkey can do (and never did) any wrong position. These facts are documented in scholarly sorces numbnuts - they are neither conspiracy nor are they unknown. You are making a grave mistake arguing with Fadix on this issue - he will only hand you your a$$ on a plate.

I/we are familiar with the story of the Turkish Diplomat who was involved in saving many xxxs (working with Greek Partisans in fact interestingly) - however offical Turkish Policy was to turn away xxxish refugees - and that your government did - tragically so in one case. Additionally Turkey continued to supply Germany with vital ores and products accepting stolen xxxish gold for payment - gold that has never been returned. What historians know is that Turkey and its leaders had great sympathy's with the Nazis during this period but the fear of British naval power kept it from joining the war on the Nazi side. Of course Turkey was in know position to directly confront the Soviet Union - it was dor this reason the Turks required the Germans to cut off the Caucuses from the rest of Russia/SU proper and form a barrier between them and Turkey and it was under these circumstances - a German victory at Stalingrad and a cutting off of the Cuacuses from the rest of the Soviet Union where Turkey would be safe enough form at least the Russian threat to enter into the war on the German side.

[cumanicus]

Cumanicus - you are showing us your historical weakness and again that you can only cling to the pro-Turkey can do (and never did) any wrong position. These facts are documented in scholarly sorces numbnuts - they are neither conspiracy nor are they unknown. You are making a grave mistake arguing with Fadix on this issue - he will only hand you your a$$ on a plate.

I/we are familiar with the story of the Turkish Diplomat who was involved in saving many xxxs (working with Greek Partisans in fact interestingly) - however offical Turkish Policy was to turn away xxxish refugees - and that your government did - tragically so in one case. Additionally Turkey continued to supply Germany with vital ores and products accepting stolen xxxish gold for payment - gold that has never been returned. What historians know is that Turkey and its leaders had great sympathy's with the Nazis during this period but the fear of British naval power kept it from joining the war on the Nazi side. Of course Turkey was in know position to directly confront the Soviet Union - it was dor this reason the Turks required the Germans to cut off the Caucuses from the rest of Russia/SU proper and form a barrier between them and Turkey and it was under these circumstances - a German victory at Stalingrad and a cutting off of the Cuacuses from the rest of the Soviet Union where Turkey would be safe enough form at least the Russian threat to enter into the war on the German side.

winoman, your Turkish hatred makes you to claim stupid arguments. You are lying about J*wish golds, there is no such thing happened in Turkey (you may say that argument for Swiss). You may feel ashamed with western societys crimes against J*ws and may try to find partners for your crimes, but that doesn't change the reality. All history books write the opposite so there is no meaning to debate it.
You can not accuse Turkey in any way about J*ws since only Turkey is the place that J*ws were living in security. All Europe is either terminated their J*ws or helped Germans for it, or became silent for those crimes. If you consider yourself as European which you deperately claim it, then only thing you have to do about J*ws is to be ashamed and become silent.

[winoman]

Why don't you take a bit of your own advice:

...then only thing you have to do about Armenians is to be ashamed and become silent.

And BTW - you really know nothing about me and are obviously lacking in a great deal of knowledge concerning your own history

[cumanicus]

Why don't you take a bit of your own advice:

And BTW - you really know nothing about me and are obviously lacking in a great deal of knowledge concerning your own history

Well as I understand both you and Fadix are two guys that have a childish self confidence and an obsession about Turkish history. And bothe of you consider youself some kind of intellectual or important person which show both of you more miserable. First you throw up popular stereotypic arguments or conspiracies since it seems that you have enough time for those stupid things and when I state the main line arguments which contradict "yours" then you either start insults or swears and start to say childishly "oh, you don't know who am I, I am a very important and clever person, I am intellectual, etc."
I don't want to believe that Armenian intellectuals are freaks like you. BTW how really old are you?

[Fadix3]

Well as I understand both you and Fadix are two guys that have a childish self confidence and an obsession about Turkish history. And bothe of you consider youself some kind of intellectual or important person which show both of you more miserable. First you throw up popular stereotypic arguments or conspiracies since it seems that you have enough time for those stupid things and when I state the main line arguments which contradict "yours" then you either start insults or swears and start to say childishly "oh, you don't know who am I, I am a very important and clever person, I am intellectual, etc."
I don't want to believe that Armenian intellectuals are freaks like you. BTW how really old are you?

Childish child freak, conspirationist childish freek child, obsessed of obsession child of conspiracies freak. (Above incapables idiot language)

{As a matter of fact, the idiot is yet to refute any points I brought, or substanciate his claim that Germany threatned Turkey. So typical of an intelectualy incapable m-oron, when confronted to arguments, just slander the messager and hope that others may be enough idiots to think he's making any points.}