What would have happened today if the Armenians were not displaced from Turkey?

[Otto3]

Otto as much as i understand what you are trying to say - you should understand that to come here - as a Turk - and ask Armenians to have empathy for Turkish losses in wars (or otherwise) is not likely to ever elicit the response (sympathy) you are hoping for. Sorry. I do understand your point - and why Armenians as a people might be ones to have empathy for loss - just in general - but you have to understand that given the situation where your nation so vehemetly denies what was done to Armenians - and worse - continually seeks to turn it back on us - and blame us - etc - well come now - how can you expect Armenian to have any sympathy. A great many of us would love if there were no Turks left at all on the planet and most others are going to have great difficulty seeing your plight (or past misfortune) as something at all they could care about in the least. And you would likely feel the same way if the roles were reversed - considering what was done and the total lack of any compassion from either The Turkish government nor most Turks (and most of what we get is outright hostility). So please don't expect such when everything - including your government and most Turks - is stacked against and gives no reason for sympathy on the part of most all Armenians.

i didnt ask for sympath or something else... you got my point anyway.... i was trying to tell that the way of seeing things are totally different for turks and for armenians... sure i can understand that armenians have no sympathy for us and it is really stupid to ask for that without any apology (at least)... what i mean is before trying to tell anything to each other we should find a common language... without that it all comes to "you did it- no i did not" stuff....or it is like running pascal programs on a C+ editor (is that correct?)

[Otto3]

It's an interesting argument, though not really applicable to the Armenian Genocide. The history of Armenia is likewise mostly filled with armed struggles, our triumphs over the conquerors followed by periods of independence and cultural expansion and our losses followed by decades and centuries of oppression and foreign yoke. Armenians have been conquered by the Romans, Persians, Byzantines, Arabs, Ottomans, and each time we were conquered ment civilians either killed or oppressed. However in all our history we were never attacked with the simple goal of cleansing our historic lands from us. When your civilians died, they died in wars which ostensibly your nation started (in its mad drive to conquer Asia and Europe). Let's be frank your job was to dish out suffering not to receive it. You might have gotten some suffering only because your plans had failed. When Turks were kicked out of the revolting nations, they had Turkey to come back to. Your people still could keep their dignity. You could bury your dead for example.

What your nation funded, supervises and carried out, was an extermination of people the way your exterminate insects. Not only did more than a million and half people die in premeditated massacres, but the survivors found themselves homeless, frantically escaping the massacres as they left their dead mothers, fathers, spouses, siblings on the side of the road without so much as the being able to carry out proper burials.

Nothing in our history of continuous and sometimes uninteruppted subjugation and oppression compares to the barbaric treatment we got from the Turks. The fact that almost every single peoples your forefathers, the Ottomans, lorded over (including your muslim brothers the Arabs) desperately tried to break free ment they were intimately aquainted with your brutal ways.

you are right about that mostly.... and you know i never tried to justify anything in this forum... and just because arabs are muslim that does not make them our brothers..keep that in mind will you?

[axel]

Although i believe that ,due to the globalisation and the policies of ''free market'',it is inevitable that in the future there wont be borders and neither nations to speak of.

Communism, capitalism... two faces of a same coin: materialistic internationalism

After all ''modern'' nationalism was invented in the 18th century.

Patriotism is not an ideology. It is a natural feeling.

Having said that ,it is time for the people to stop being concerned with their narrow national interests and to focus to the class struggle.

"Class struggle". That's a 19-th century concept. though I have to agree socialism was not invented by Marx.


some reading in russian:

http://shafarevich.voskres.ru/a1.htm

http://lib.ru/PROZA/SOLZHENICYN/gulag.txt

http://lib.ru/PROZA/SOLZHENICYN/gulag2.txt

http://lib.ru/PROZA/SOLZHENICYN/gulag3.txt

also a very good article in english:

"ABOUT BOURGEOISNESS AND SOCIALISM"

http://www.krotov.info/engl/berdyaev/1917_266.html

[loveataturk]

AXEL: I do not think "patriotism" is a natural "feeling", to my mind it is an "animal instinct", much parallel to "territory marking and protection".
If it were a feeling, it ewould have to be based on something humane. I think always EVIL comes out of patriotism.

[axel]

in one thread you write:

I love Ataturk, first and foremost because he protected us from being losers in a war that meant the make or break of our nation. Thank God first and Ataturk next for having made us victorius against the inventers of the practice of genocide: the christian West. I also feel sympathy for the Armenian folk of the past of Anatolia, who were poisoned by the christian West into being their pawns against the Turkish land and people. But wake up, the Westerners were defeated and expelled. Armenians bet on the wrong side, rebelled and got crushed.

("christian west", this is a good one btw)

then a few days later,

I think the whole notion of "nation" is the very crux of all armed conflict from the start of history. I find a disturbing parallel between the "territory protection" instinct of animals and human's "nation and nationality" ideas. And then we all keep SHAMELESSLY talking about our nation, our blood, and then go even more shameless to try and find GOD's justification in our actions...
MONEY, NATION, RELIGION...We really have to focus on these threee notions, and check to see if these three ideas are not unlike the 3 NO-NO's that doctors tell us to refrain from 1. sugar, 2. salt, 3. flour !

and finally,

do not think "patriotism" is a natural "feeling", to my mind it is an "animal instinct", much parallel to "territory marking and protection".

interesting evolution...


"animal instinct"?

sorry, we are not turkish.

[Thai-Samurai]

ahaha nice one, the jokes on you Turk!! What're you gonna do now huh? Nothing probably, you ain't go nothing fool. Where you gonna go? Nowhere, you ain't got nowhere to go. That's right.

[Otto3]

let me explain the evolution of loveatatürk... he is a turk... like me.. and he is confused... just like me...one day i can think clearly and logically and the next day my turkish blood preassure hits the top and the man our system produced comes the surface...thats that simple... it happens to us all time to time... when he states patriotism is just territory marking you can believe that is exactly what he thinks... but ofcourse when he is exposed to different ideas he can easily become the ideal turk... just like every other turk around... that how we come out the factory... our default settings are on offensive level (or you can call it defensive nevermind because offence and defence means a nice fight)

and also he is a leftist... he tries to avoid nationalistic lines but he cannot do it in an armenian forum....it is fun to watch... typical turkish leftist... you are just a nationalist with a different color...

[Կարմիր Բ]

Communism, capitalism... two faces of a same coin: materialistic internationalism

Communism and Capitalism my dear are diametrically opposed.

Patriotism is not an ideology. It is a natural feeling.

Modern nationalism (the "folk" nation) was basically invented in the 18th century of Johann Gottfried von Herder in the 18th century, and became for the first time a significant political force in the 19th with the French Revolution.

Modern nationalism,thus patriotism,is an invention.

though I have to agree socialism was not invented by Marx.

Scientific Socialism was developed my Karl Marx and Frederick Engels.This is not debatable.

"Class struggle". That's a 19-th century concept.

The ''Class Strugle'' begun during 19th-century because it was only then that science in general and consequently scientific socialism (unlike Hegel's utopian socialism)
was developed and .It was the progress of science that alowed to Karl Marx and Frederick Engels to at last with facts prove that :


''The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles''

Anyone who denies the above then he is simply illiterate in history.

[axel]

You surpass thoth/wino by a very wide margin. this is not debatable.

[loveataturk]

Good explanation by Otto. A person, no matter how RATIONAL'ly inclined at heart and ideology, can only take a limited amount of (i) Racist, ii) Religious fundementalist, iii) Irrationally aggressive) pressure from people with "OBSESSIVE" opinions. This obsession with unwarranted aggression and irrationality is abundant in Armenians, if this forum is a good judge, almost identical to the "Grey Wolf" sect in Turks.
Thus, one's mind often wanders to the territory :"Let some of these poor Armenian chaps hit their heads to the wall of immeasurably stronger Grey wolves, and learn their lesson the hard way"
Do not go there...You will always lose. Stay on the positive, the rational way. IF you choose aggression and challenge, just take a look at the power of your people and nation comparably to the Turks, and get back your good senses.
Do not let your hot temper and miserable patriotism lead you astray. Be nice to Turks.