What would have happened today if the Armenians were not displaced from Turkey?

[loveataturk]

Otto3, I should definitely show this post of yours that claims "I am a nationalist with a different color" to my wife
This is the first time I have been conceived as a "nationalist".
But then again, maybe some of the fierier of these Armenian chaps here can turn Dr. JEkyll into Mr. Hyde. One of the few things they do good.

[Կարմիր Բ]

You surpass thoth/wino by a very wide margin. this is not debatable.

I would twist the subject as well if i was in such an inconvenient position.

[winoman]

Otto & loveataturk - again I appreciate your positions and what you are trying to say here - but let me say a few things. I have met Turks who deviate orders of magnitude more then either of you from the official Turkish party line (concerning the Armenian Genocide and just in general) - and while not all of them I would lable as nationalisitic (one exception named Atilla [who has never posted here - a different Atilla) comes to mind (and he BTW has advocated returning of territories and compensation for Armenians) - but even other Turks I know - who generally would be regarded as highly sympathetic to the Armenian position and who understand the various faults with your nation - I still consider them to be rather nationalisitc in outlook. Its just natural - particularly with Turks (it is incredibly inbred with you guys) - though I would say the exact same thing in regards to most Armenians. All that being said - I think you overly generalize regarding Armenians and the Armenian positions held etc - and regardless - we all know that there are extrmists and folks who will never have an ounce of empathy for the other "side" etc - and if we wanted to take the easy road we could just set ourselves in opposition to these people and leave it at that - its very easy to do. However if you don't want to be one of these people you have to do better then that. And I don't think all of the Armenians you have encountered here on this forum are so obsessed or anti-Turkish or what have you that you can't deal with them or the real issues without having to revert to the standard lines. I understand your frustrations (with some) and why you have difficulty to not (seemingly - or at least to us)reflect a standard line Turkish perspective - as opposed to differentiating yourself from the status quo over there - even if in fact within Turkey you might be a radical whom other Turks would view as way outside the standard thinking - but if indeed you o keep comming back to the same arguments and statements regarding Armenians and can't break out of that thinking (somewhat programmed into you) well of course we see just see you as just another nationalisitc Turk...so its really up to you...its up to you to ignore the BS from some Armenians (who are more or less our Grey Wolves or at least who see no value in trying to understand that Turks are not some monolithic block or what have you - or even appreciate that most Turks are really OK people and not all monsters etc) and its up to you to deal with more enlightend folks and really attempt to understand the issues and that many of us really understand quite a bit about them and even have a great deal of appreciation for the dynamics of the Turkish side. Perhaps some of us are quite a bit less ignorant or blindly nationalistic that you are giving credit for (and some of us understand the same is true for you folks -but if you give us no reson to see you differently...well what do you expect?) At the same time I think plenty of us here have given you reason to understand that we are not just knee jerk Turk haters or people who you should just dismiss as such.

[axel]

I would twist the subject as well if i was in such an inconvenient position.

inconvenient position?

you simply stated your articles of faith.

what should I answer to someone who reduces man to a category (or class) and whose ideal is nothing else but the edification of a human anthouse? marx' linear conception of history (which has much in common with Hegel's philosophy), this whole idea of progress you presumably subscribe to is as ludicrous as Francis Fukuyama's essay about the end of history. his emphasis on dialectical mechanisms in historical developement is just a secular adaptation of a zoharic principle. but there is no room for debate here. the fact that you append "scientific" to "socialism" already tells a lot about your religious belief in "science" and its pretention to explain man.

something people of your kind fail to realize is than man is larger than any system man may ever conceive which is precisely why socialism had to negate freedom, why it had to create a gulag for all the individuals that did not fit into its system. leaving everything else aside, the gulag is a direct consequence of the proclaimed principles. for the system infallibility was not to be questioned, counter-examples to the "scientific theory" could not be but eliminated.

and of course "the ends justify the means". for we are not in the domain of faith actually, but in that of fanaticism, that of ideology.

at the expense of repeating myself, socialism as an idea pervaded a number of societies long before marx was born. marx simply decorated the idea with the superstition of his time, positivism, so as to sell it to the gullible.

as far as history is concerned, nothing spontaneous in the bolshevik revolution, nothing spontaneous (nor national) in the so-called french revolution. It is not "class struggle" that brought upon 1917 but wall street cash. this is fact, not dogma.

[Otto3]

mr. love ataturk... in turkey i dont see any difference between leftists and the right wing because neither of them can stand the opposite side... this is generalization ofcourse.. while leftists speak about free speech and all i didnt vitness any of them tolerate other side.so i think that makes them radicals who wont allow any idea except their ideas... so whats your (i mean leftists) difference from a grey wolf who doesnt have any tolerance against leftist ideas... that was my point.. nothing personal against you at the momment..lol... at least grey wolves does what they say..their doctrine and actions are parralel while leftists behave like grey wolves quite opposite to their teachings and stuff...

[Otto3]

and you mr. wino.... i understand most of the issues here... let me sum them up for you... first regardless of numbers i believe too many armenians died and they never deserved such actions against them... ther had been some small militias and CUP used them as an excuse to take action against all armenians... we owe you a big apology (even if some of you dont care and seek revenge thats totally understandable)... but the rest of the problems are on political level and politics just suck and i dont know what to do about it... because there is no justice on the face of the world without discrimination... there is only power and the people who had it... no justice for armenians as well as turks if we were the ones that had been massacared... thats my point of view... i guess you will strongly oppose this but i have many examples to support my ideas while you dont have any (i guess)... i never say that i like it that way.. while speaking about justice for armenian people that they have all rights to seek for what i say is armenians shouldnt forget about the mechanism of the world... i know i repeated those things many times before so you dont have to say anything because you also patiently (most of the time) answered them... real question is " what are we gonna do?" i cant think of anything at the moment... you all know about turkish general opinion... but ofcourse i can tell you that people have doubts about government story of the issue.. and more people will share those doubts in the future and that future is not so far... but i know this. if i dont care about justice while i am strong then i will have no chance to ask for justice when i fall.. wish everybody can remember that..

[winoman]

Otto - I'm not sure I understand your point. You seem to be agreeing (with the complete and total validity of the Armenian position here) so what is your issue? Some hypothetical concern that if Turks were in the same situation no one would likewise care? OK I would not disagree with this. And that there are all sort5s of politics at worth (that may or may not be in line with the truth or what not...again OK so? This does not diminish the Armenian pain and expectation for justice) So I really don't understand your beef with Armenians on this.As for what needs to be done now...well obviously Armenians just can't go away and forget nor can they let the issue fall off the map in terms of publicity nor can they cease their pressure - because without these things there will be no incentive for the vested powers that be in Turkey to change - nor to allow your society to change in this regard. But I would agree - to statements made by one of you in the recent past - that the ball is currently in the Turkish court. And in the meantime I do find your and your compatriots expressions of sympathy and understanding welcoming and positive.

[skhara]

You know something Otto. I really don't hate your posts. In fact, you are quite right. You must be an Islamisized Armenian, I don't imagine a actual turk can display your level of intelligence. Woops! was that a racist comment?

(even if some of you dont care and seek revenge thats totally understandable)... but the rest of the problems are on political level and politics just suck and i dont know what to do about it... because there is no justice on the face of the world without discrimination...

Nice. Quite a correct statement. Might is right, always was and always will be. That's why Armenians should be seeking might, and they do. And Armenian might is the last thing that is in Turkish interests, so Turks do everything possible to try and undermine it.

there is only power and the people who had it... no justice for armenians as well as turks if we were the ones that had been massacared... thats my point of view...

Yes, another correct comment. If roles were reversed, they would be entirely reversed, both yesterday and today.

i guess you will strongly oppose this but i have many examples to support my ideas while you dont have any (i guess)...

He has a pretty narrow view and thinks there is only black and white with no gray. Just like I suspect you are an Islamicized Armenian, I suspect -- ah never mind .

i never say that i like it that way.. while speaking about justice for armenian people that they have all rights to seek for what i say is armenians shouldnt forget about the mechanism of the world...

Come on over to our side, I'll treat you as a lost brother. Just leave your ridiculous Allah on the opposite side.

Now obviously, on every stage Armenians go after Armenian interests. Turks concern themselves with Turkish interests.
Think about it folks. What are turks going to do. What you'll have a turk parent bring a photograph to a little Mustafa Turkoglu, and say:
"Now listen little Mustafa. This is a photograph of your great grand Ata. Now let me tell you about your great grand Ata. He was a real animal. Here is another picture of your great grand Ata -- as you can see he is holding a couple of severed heads. Here is picture of great grand Ata lighting a monestrary with his torch with people trapped inside." ETC.

Obviously they are not going to do that. Why on earth would they? What happenned according to them? They are going to say, "Armenians started killing first. We just defended ourselves. Many people died, but many people die in wars. We feel bad for all the people who died." (--But then again, not really ).

Think about Germany, they wouldn't have accepted one dam thing if they weren't entirely destroyed, humiliated, and subjugated. There are reports of Red Army troops "extracting" confessions from the Germans. They wouldn't confess anything, if they weren't forced. So turks, on a private level may reflect and accept things, but why would they undermine their own national interests on the public level? They would not. Its that simple, I can understand this concept, and the Armenian leadership/elites understand it just as well. A lot of what you witness, is perfectly natural personal emotion.

[Thai-Samurai]

yes!! Now we're getting somewhere; what about a break and drink some hot sake together.

[Otto3]

over in time things will change for sure...when suffering of armenian people generally accepted by the public, government will have no choice but go with the flow... but we all must accept that turkish people including me are easily motivated and misguided by government... there had been a flag burning incident in the near past and everybody became same old turk as we were before... so i am not holding much hope... and once in bulgaria they tried to change names of the turkish minority.. turkish tvs started to show historical movies... you wouldnt believe the affects of this... everybody was ready to join the army at the time.... anyway we shall see... on political level it is like rope pulling contest... first one to cross the line will lose just or unjust...