recognition of armenian genocide

[Vagharshapat]

Re: recognition of armenian genocide

what is the democratic federation of Anatolia?

Is your concern for Armenians based on some personal moral values or do you have christian or Armenian ancestory?

My concern for Armenians is based on my personal moral values yes.

Before 1908 the revolutionary groups were striving for a more democratic state with every people having equal rights. Their motto was justice, equality and freedom. But of course the 1908 revolution was lie. The christian peoples contiuned to be the second-class subjects. Because the Turks didn't have the intention to cease from the Turkish and Islamic domination over Anatolia. They chose the policy of Turkilizing and assimilating Anatolia. They destroyed the Anatolian identity, erased the rich cultures of Anatolia and eventually created a shallow artificial country with a price of victimizing all the ancient Christian peoples. What a great idiocy.

If they weren't so chauvinistic and fascist minded. Was it so hard to grant autonomy for Armenians acknowledging the historical Armenia and honouring the Armenian culture and gratifying this fundamental and crucial element of Anatolia? Was it so hard to embrace the great Pontic and Greek culture? No they had to look down on them. They had to be dominant. And they erased these cultures from Anatolia as if their culture was richer than these. They didn't have the right to do this. But they did and look at the place where we live right now. A total mess without aesthetics, taste, art. A shallow banal people without roots, culture and intellectuality who worship power and whose main value is violence.

Anatolia could be a great place. A cradle of civilization. A land of peace. A multicultural state where highly intellectual, peaceful and productive people live in contributing the family of humanity. This could happen but they didn't let it be....

[Vagharshapat]

Re: recognition of armenian genocide

ideological reasons.

Mason locaları Atatürk'ün girişimiyle 1935'de kapatıldı ve bütün mal varlıkları Halkevlerine bağışlandı... "Osmanlı Devleti'nin yönetimini ele geçirmiş" yahudiler her nasılsa yönetimine sahip oldukları ülkede gayri-müslim muamelesi gördü ve örneğin müslümanlar gibi varlık vergisinden muaf tutulmadılar...

Varlık vergisini çıkaran kadroya dikkat edersen sabetayist bir kadrodur. Hala Yahudilerin nasıl iş gördüğünü kavrayamamışsınız.

Amaç o sırada yeni kurulmakta olan İsrail'e yeterli insan gücünün göç etmesini sağlamaktır. Türkiye'dekilerin buradaki zengin hayatlarını bırakıp da o çorak topraklara gitmeye de pek niyetleri yoktu aslında.

Varlık vergisinden sonra Türkiye'den İsrail'e yoğun bir insan göçü başlamıştır.

[Vagharshapat]

Re: recognition of armenian genocide

Hi Vagharshapat
and moreover don't forget the Baku Tiflis Cehan pipeline there are now talks between Israel and Turkey for Turkey to supply Israel with oil and gas so Turkey is super important for Israel for it's survival.

Good point. This is a 130 year old story;

In the 1880's, the French branch of the Rothschild family acquired interests in Russia's Baku oil fields in an effort to supply their refinery on the Adriatic with cheap Russian oil. In exchange for these interests they built a railroad linking Baku to the newly acquired Black Sea port of Batum. This opened up the Baku oil, a major world supply, to the world. It had previously been geographically locked in by the mountains of the Caucasus.[The Swedish Nobel family had been supplying internal Russia with the Baku oil by way of rivers as well as via the Caspian Sea]. With the success of the new railroad, the Rothschilds had more oil than they could actually sell. Overcoming their fear of competing with the giant Standard oil, they sought out the huge markets east of Suez.

At the recommendation of their shipping broker, they sought out a man to help them penetrate these markets. His name was Marcus Samuel. Samuel had many contacts throughout the Far East. When the Rothschilds proposed to sell their oil to Samuel, understanding the magnitude of the opportunity, and understanding the competition with a foe like Standard oil, he set about tackling the logistics of successfully competing with the giant company. Samuel understood that he needed to sell his oil at a cheaper price. In his efforts to do this he reduced transportation costs by designing bulk tankers which were safe enough to pass through the Suez Canal. Standard 's costs would be much higher as they transported their oil around the tip of Africa in clipper ships that were loaded with pre-filled cans.

Marcus Samuel's new and improved bulk tankers would shave 4,000 miles off the trip to the Far East by utilizing the Suez Canal. Previous oil tanker designs failed to meet the stringent safety requirements imposed by the Suez Canal Company.

In 1892, Samuel's coup would unleash forces that would shape the history of mankind. His first oil tanker picked up it's load of Baku oil from the Rothschild's Batum refinery and sailed through the Dardenelles and on through the Suez canal to the far east where the Shell oil company became, overnight the predominant supplier of Kerosene replacing Standard oil. The great Standard world monopoly had been busted.

The Shell oil company relationship went on to thrive even after Samuel's nine-year contract with the Rothschilds as it would pick up a partner with addition of the Royal Dutch Petroleum Company which was making its fortune drilling for oil in Sumatra. The new company, British Dutch Petroleum, would soon be joined by the Rothschilds forming the Asiatic Petroleum Company, later calling itself the Royal Dutch/Shell Group which would eventually join Standard Oil and the Nobels in a worldwide oil cartel.

The decision by the shrewd French Rothschild branch to diversify into other areas of oil exploitation was, presumably, a calculated one. Three years after they joined Royal Dutch, production at Baku would come to an abrupt halt in 1905. Although shaken by political activity, the principal disruption was due to the violence of the ethnic conflict between the region's Moslems and the minority population of Armenians who are Christians. This ethnic conflict caused the first interruption of oil distribution to the world market. Standard oil was quick to supplant the needs of the effected markets as its source was operating under the blanket of peace and would flow until dried.

The Royal/Dutch/Shell Group (and the Nobels) watched their Baku investments go up in flames. Ethnic conflict was at the root of the matter. It could be safely assumed that they were taking measures to eliminate the possibility of that happening in the future. Their oil empire could not survive operating under those conditions. It was plain and simple. In fact, Standard had to be taking notes as well; they couldn't afford to ignore the lessons of Baku.

Considering this brief history at the dawn of the new Oil Age, a question presents itself to the inquisitive and demanding student. To an all-powerful banking family like the Rothschilds, whose vast wealth bankrolled many a war, causing millions of fatalities... was the removal of a small minority like the Armenians a fair price to pay for the peace in a region so crucial to the development and investment of the Far East, which contained countless millions, later billions of consumers? Squeamish the Rothschilds were not, their line of work requires pragmatism to rule their day.

It would be fair to say that the genocide of a group of a million or so, to serve the benefit of a billion or so, is less of a question of should it be done, than how it could be done. So as not to reveal any plausible motive which could link the actual planners to the genocide, the scheme involved a proxy party, which was manipulated through layers of influence, providing sufficient cover for the planners.

The mere elimination of the Armenian population of Baku would not solve the problem of ethnic conflict in that region. The surrounding areas would provide reservoir effect in resupplying the conflicting minority element. [It is here interesting to note that there is no malice on the part of big business in their decision to erase a population. It is simply easier to erase a million than tens or hundreds of millions of the surrounding Moslem population]

Of course, history tells us that it was the Turks, and not big business that committed the Armenian atrocities. However, if one looks closely, one would find that the Turks owed more than one favor to the French government which aided Turkey in it's recent past. It was Napoleon III who fought for Turkey's entrance into the concert of Europe. France took the lead in Turkey's economic development with French securities and investment exceeding that of any other nation.

French leaders come and go. However a constant behind France's economic power was the French branch of the Rothschild family. Napoleon III was a Rothschild man. Specifically, Baron James de Rothschild's man. Baron James was, financially and hence politically, the most powerful figure in France, indeed on earth during his time. Napoleon's efforts on behalf of Turkey were Rothschilds' efforts. The question arises. Was the Armenian genocide an obligation demanded by Turkey's creditor? The Armenian massacres of 1894 and 1896 occurred merely two years after Baku oil first began to flow through the Suez Canal to the Far Eastern markets. Armenians were living within the Ottoman Empire for hundreds of years, how incredible fortuitous for the oilmen that ethnic hatred would heat up to such a pitch as to consume their population! The Armenian genocide, during World War I, brought stability to the Baku oil region. A further accomplishment of World War I was the successful demise of the Ottoman Empire. The oil fields of Mesopotamia were to be brought under British "protection". World War I was in essence, Phase I. With its successful completion, World War II or Phase II of the genocidal ambitions of international oil companies would be put into effect- securing the Suez Canal region by eliminating mass immigration of European xxxs into Palestine.

Of the French Rothschilds, it was Alphonse and his younger brother Edmond who were considered the Rothschild family's oil experts. One could begin to imagine Edmond's lack of enthusiasm when confronted with Theodor Hertzl's ambitious ideas about financing massive xxxish immigration into Palestine during their meeting in 1896. Hertzl sought Rothschild's help in financing this massive immigration. Although Rothschild was by far the single most important source of funding for the xxxish settlements in Palestine, his intentions were primarily for investment purposes. It was slow steady growth that he looked forward to. Not the mass immigration of millions of "beggars" into an area as crucial to his oil business as the Suez Canal region. Certainly as volatile as Baku, Palestine and the surrounding Moslem areas were susceptible to the same problems of ethnic disruption. An Arab reaction to an influx of "infidel" xxxs, carrying with them the disease of western culture would spell disaster for the region's peace. Hertzl, obviously unaware of the political environment of the area, even approached the Turkish sultan for assistance, and of course was turned away.
Theodor Hertzl, in his, naive and unsuccessful initial drive to secure a homeland for the xxxs of the world, decided to take his case away from the bigshots and put it to the people. It was amongst them that he began to receive support for his ideas, and in turn making some very powerful people very nervous, stirring forces that would come to consume the xxxs of Europe whom, ironically, he was trying to protect.

http://www.geocities.com/cliff_shack/RothschildianGenocide.html

PS: Most of the ideas in this link are conspiracy theories. But some of them make sense. I don't know if I can provide you more links because most of them were Turkish links and books but you can search the internet.

One of the sources: From The Banality of Indifference: Zionism and the Armenian Genocide, Yair Auron

[Vagharshapat]

Re: recognition of armenian genocide

Check this link;

http://forum.armenianclub.com/showthread.php?t=6039

[Lucin]

Re: recognition of armenian genocide

Why not? If you respect the Truth and if you are fed up with living a lie, fed up with living in an artificial country with taboos and dogmas and constraits and paranoia and if you suffer every day of this mental sickness caused by not confronting the truth, the national arrogance and the guilty conscience you can write such an article....

The understanding and respect of the Truth is one side of the story, but ‘that’ put aside, how many of you Turk ‘recognizers’ will be open to the restitution of the Armenian lands? Do you consider that part as well or everything for you ends with just a recognition? (And that’s why I don’t 'care' much about the recognition, if no land restitution; compensation and punishments are involved)

[Vagharshapat]

Re: recognition of armenian genocide

The understanding and respect of the Truth is one side of the story, but ‘that’ put aside, how many of you Turk ‘recognizers’ will be open to the restitution of the Armenian lands? Do you consider that part as well or everything for you ends with just a recognition? (And that’s why I don’t 'care' much about the recognition, if no land restitution; compensation and punishments are involved)

I posted this on 11-18-2006;

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am a Turk and in my opinion Western Armenia must be restored. Because it is the homeland of Armenians so it is their right to have it. As I believe in justice this must be done without a war. But Turkey will never accept this. So this is the duty of international courts to force Turkey to give these lands as a compensation. As I can see Eastern Anatolia is a dead place now, there's nothing, it is barren, people are migrating to west. If it had belonged to Armenians it would be a very developed place right now, maybe Armenia would be in the EU. Armenians will revive there and build their country again with their skills, talent and hardworking. I think that at least the Ararat region, Kars, Van, Mush must be given to Armenia. There are 8-9 million Armenians in the world, they can all settle there. Maybe a sea port can be given in Artvin too. But without international intervention these cant be done. The big countries always neglect the Armenians and they always beyrayed them. Because they dont want to lose their big friend Turkey. But this must chang now, a public support must be gained all over the world. These are my opinions Armenian friends...

[Էլիա]

Re: recognition of armenian genocide

I posted this on 11-18-2006;

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am a Turk and in my opinion Western Armenia must be restored. Because it is the homeland of Armenians so it is their right to have it. As I believe in justice this must be done without a war. But Turkey will never accept this. So this is the duty of international courts to force Turkey to give these lands as a compensation. As I can see Eastern Anatolia is a dead place now, there's nothing, it is barren, people are migrating to west. If it had belonged to Armenians it would be a very developed place right now, maybe Armenia would be in the EU. Armenians will revive there and build their country again with their skills, talent and hardworking. I think that at least the Ararat region, Kars, Van, Mush must be given to Armenia. There are 8-9 million Armenians in the world, they can all settle there. Maybe a sea port can be given in Artvin too. But without international intervention these cant be done. The big countries always neglect the Armenians and they always beyrayed them. Because they dont want to lose their big friend Turkey. But this must chang now, a public support must be gained all over the world. These are my opinions Armenian friends...

Very good post Vagharshapat! I also believe this should happen (and will, because Turkey will eventually collapse from corruption and an identity crisis).

[gizzy]

Re: recognition of armenian genocide

My concern for Armenians is based on my personal moral values yes.

Before 1908 the revolutionary groups were striving for a more democratic state with every people having equal rights. Their motto was justice, equality and freedom. But of course the 1908 revolution was lie. The christian peoples contiuned to be the second-class subjects. Because the Turks didn't have the intention to cease from the Turkish and Islamic domination over Anatolia. They chose the policy of Turkilizing and assimilating Anatolia. They destroyed the Anatolian identity, erased the rich cultures of Anatolia and eventually created a shallow artificial country with a price of victimizing all the ancient Christian peoples. What a great idiocy.

If they weren't so chauvinistic and fascist minded. Was it so hard to grant autonomy for Armenians acknowledging the historical Armenia and honouring the Armenian culture and gratifying this fundamental and crucial element of Anatolia? Was it so hard to embrace the great Pontic and Greek culture? No they had to look down on them. They had to be dominant. And they erased these cultures from Anatolia as if their culture was richer than these. They didn't have the right to do this. But they did and look at the place where we live right now. A total mess without aesthetics, taste, art. A shallow banal people without roots, culture and intellectuality who worship power and whose main value is violence.

Anatolia could be a great place. A cradle of civilization. A land of peace. A multicultural state where highly intellectual, peaceful and productive people live in contributing the family of humanity. This could happen but they didn't let it be....

I keep reading every single post of Vagharshapat over and over again. As I read, I keep thinking how nice and peaceful person she is. She must be a poet or a writer or perhaps she is both. If you are reading this, please post more of your ideas. I loved the way you express your thoughts that are coming from the heart. Do you also write on cyprus problem? If yes then could you please share your opinions with all the cypriots at " www.cyprus-forum.com ". I would be more than grateful.

[exfo]

Re: recognition of armenian genocide

The grand master was a Turkish Jev; Emmanuel Karasso. He was also one of the founders of Jon-Turks. Emmanuel Karasso was in close touch with Hertzl. He was one of the 3 men who had gone to declare Abdulhamid that he was overthrown.

Correct, and other 3 men are Aram Efendi (Armenian), Esat Toptani (Albanian), Arif Hihmet (Georgian)

No there were 4 men to declare Abdulhamid is overthrown. Yes Emanuel Efendi was Jev and yes Aram Efendi was Armenian. Capish?

You can only impress these ignorant guys here with these popular conspiracy theories. This "founder of Turkey were Jevs" bla bla bla is very famous nowadays in Turkey among the uneducated people on the streets because of the "popular history" books like "Efendi" You are free to read it, believe these conspiracy theories and promote them at an Armenian forum to beg symphaty from them. But the "reality" is always much more complicated than conspiracy theories and only ignorant people who are not able to cover the complexity of the real world tend to believe conspiracies.

[exfo]

Re: recognition of armenian genocide

The understanding and respect of the Truth is one side of the story, but ‘that’ put aside, how many of you Turk ‘recognizers’ will be open to the restitution of the Armenian lands? Do you consider that part as well or everything for you ends with just a recognition? (And that’s why I don’t 'care' much about the recognition, if no land restitution; compensation and punishments are involved)

Of course, who cares with only "recognition"
Land, money and "punishment"