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**Elysium** · 07-21-2007, 12:03 AM

Re: Greek Genocide

hey brother I am glad you are here to talk about the pain that both our groups went through. If you really want to discuss the Genocides of both Greeks and Armenians and other by Turks check out http://www.armeniangenocide.com/ .
It has a more active user base so you will get more discussion and the Turks there are more keen to discuss then to insult.

Also Greek nation is absolutely beautiful, I used to live in Athens, great memories. Peace.

**ottomans** · 07-21-2007, 01:16 AM

Lie!!

A Greek article was published about the Pontus genocide claims in the Internet web site �www.sitemaker.gr/antiethnikistik� (an act against nationalism� of the author doctor Georgos Nakratzas who does the historical analysis of ethic based social movements in 04/07/2004.

In the �Clamour about the Pontus Genocide� headed article, where G. Nakratzas gives the address �Post Box 13794 10310 Athena� and his e-mail �[email protected]� as contact channel, he says;

�Recently, there has been an unbelievable clamour continuing about the so-called genocide of the Greeks in Pontus and Ionia in 1922. The withdrawal of the governmental decree, which was about the genocide of the Ionian Greeks and was signed by the President, by the Prime Minister Simitis before it was published in the Official Gazette, even it was just before, was an important event. The governmental decree was fixing the official remembrance day of the so-called genocide�

The deafening clamour of the Greeks of Pontus, however, is still continuing and is also supported by the patriots, most of who are professionals and extremely nationalist, of Pontus.

Unfortunately, there has not been an expert who would concern with the historical analyse of the Greeks in Pontus and the other side of the truth.

The arguments of the Pontus nationalists about what Pontus nation experienced between 1915 and 1924 do not present a truth which is no more than poor, swerve and decorated with lies.

If it is looked at social and political point of view, a so-called revolution theory which was built on redeeming Pontus from Turkish occupation and establishing a Pontus Greek Republic is completely unreal and a fantasy.

When it is looked at theoretical point of view, the definition of revolution gets a real content only when an ethnic group that lives on a big land represents majority of the population. The situation that concerns us, however, the Greek population that lives in three provinces of Pontus is a minority which is important, small or completely unimportant.

Professor of Athena University Sotiriadis is the person who provided the statistics of 1912. Venezuela Government has used this data in various international negotiations to support their national aims.

In Trabzon providence Greeks constituted %25.9 of the population. That meant that Turkish population was 951.866 whereas Greek population was 353.533.

In Kastamonu providence, Greeks who represented %2.5 of the total population constituted an ethnic group which is unimportant in number and finally in Sivas providence the Greeks were %8.9 of the population.

If the struggle for the independence of Pontus, as it is named by nationalists, was ended with success, this would have happened only by the military domination of Greek minority on Turkish majority. Of course this domination would bring Papadopoulos� merciless dictatorship, which we have experienced in Greece and resulted with Papadopoulos� sentence for his betrayal, with it.

The nationalistic education, which has become the reason for its destruction, of Pontus population has been carried out by the Trabzon Greek minority education system gradually.

This nationalist propaganda began with the studies of S. İoanidis� who was a teacher at Trabzon course, which forms a classic example, in 1870.

The aforesaid teacher published a book under the name of �The history and the statistics of Trabzon and its surrounding region�.

In this work a lot of lies take place and the most classic example is that: ��In the period of 6. Mithridatis (63 B.C.) millions of Geek inhabitants surged into Close Asia and brought Greek race to Pontus�.

Another point of the same author is: ��because the aforesaid Mithridatis is the 6. King of the Pontus after the First Mithridatis, and he is Persian origin, but also he is the friend and general of Alexander the Great�.

The migration of the Greeks to Pontus in 63 B. C. is only the imagination of the author and aims to base Greek Asia origin which does not exist in Pontus nation to old Greece. On the other hand, the funniest part is that he mentions Alexander the Great who died 50 years before the 1. Mithridatis was announced king.

Pontus nationalists present, unacceptably, the İoannidis� work as a serious written source even today. And this information spread among the children who cannot judge it.

As it comes to the actions mentioned in aforesaid work, they are based on the works of Pontus nationalists and the library works of �Salonika Macedon Research Union� which can easily be defined as the castle of Greek nationalism in the Northern Greece just like especially the Pontus independence Andart War.

Pontus Andart Wan and its actions took place in both regions of Pontus. Bafra in Samsun and Sanda region�s mountainous terrain in Trabzon.

Especially in Bafra, the year when the 1. World War began, which is after 1914, it happened to be Christian deserters in Turkish army and these deserters survived as mostly attacking to Turkish villages, stealing animals and food.

In books which deal mainly with nationalism, hanging Orthodox deserters is narrated as an effort to get rid of Greek element systematically and is completely insubstantial.

In Valadanis� extremely nationalist work it is written exactly that, �Thirty Turkish deserters were hanged together with Christians without being informed the content�.

In other words the punishment of being deserter included Turkish people as well as Greeks and was being applied widely in whole Europe during the war.

The real Andart war began in 1916 with the Russian occupation of Trabzon and moving the Turkish � Russian front to Trabzon region.

�General Germanos Karavagellis� organised the Greek Andart War and came to Samsun as a metropolitan in 1908.

The man who covered his hands with blood, while he writes his memories describes his successes with this text: �I begin to organise these small and untidy groups as tidy and Andart units based on the experiences of struggle in Macedonia and years. These units increased. When they had precious and leaders with war experience, that I determined, they transformed to a real military unit, certain regions of the residence were under their protection and they had the whole authority�.

The metropolitan released Andart units, which he formed with the money and war equipment he got from Russians, to attack Turkish Army, who was fighting with Russians at Trabzon front, behind the front.

Poor Andarts of Bafra, most of who were Turkish speaking illiterates, fall into the trap of this blood thirsty priest and could not think of the result of this so-called independence war. In other words, with the end of the war and the disappearing of the priest for his life, that is exactly what happened, they could not even comprehend what would happen to them. They were going to stay there.

People of Bafra owe Eleftherios Venizelos Government of not staying in Pontus. The mentioned government made their transport to Greece with the other refugees obligatory according to the Lausanne Pact. Exchange was obligatory according to the pact. According to some sources Venizelos had been aiming this exchange since 1915.

As a mitigating element of the acts of the Andarts of Bafra, not having communication with outer world and receiving just limited information given by the blood thirsty metropolitan can be shown. Andarts, at least the leaders of Andarts did not even guessed that with end of the war, in the years 1945 � 1946, they would share the destiny of Macedonians who speak Slavic language or Vlachs who speak Latin language in Greece. They were accused of betrayal and were hanged by the Greek government.

Just like Turkish government accused Christian Andarts of Bafra and Sanda who had Turkish nationality of betrayal, Greek government also accused the above mentioned group, Slav speaking Macedonians and Vlachs, of betrayal and hanged.

Andarts of Pontus took place with the enemy Russian army during the war. They fought against the army of the government of which they had the nationality. They applied pressure on their fellow countryman who had different religion and they killed them.

Against the criminal acts of Karavagellis, the Greeks in Trabzon region barely experienced difficulty in this hard time. Not having even one person injured was connected to two factors:

The fist of these was that Hrisanthos Filippidis was the spiritual leader of the people of Trabzon. The aforesaid bishop become the archbishop of Greece later and was a wonderful example of humanity. The second and the most important factor was the high cultural level of the Trabzon inhabitants.

Extremely nationalist Valavanis describes, in his works, Trabzon people with this text, �Greeks of Trabzon were merchants and scientists. Excitement and enthusiasm which characterise other Greeks of Pontus were not developed in them. They met the Greek Red Cross with more controlled national feelings under pressure of terrible memories of Armenians without any clamour and with this rationalistic manner they provided Turkish people to approach the west state with respect from the beginning�.

Trabzon metropolitan Hrisanthos did not take Karavegellis as his model and did not formed Andart units in his region. On the contrary, he protected Turkish people against revenge madness of Armenians and prepresumptuous Greeks during the Russian occupation of Trabzon in 1916.

Except that, Hrisanthos gave food to poor Turkish refugees systematically. After that, sultan�s representatives, when they return to Trabzon, gave him medal for his service.

As it comes to the terrible events of Armenians and the memory of the Trabzon people about the event, these belong to the terrible developments in Van. Especially, during the 1. World War and the fights between Turkish Army and Russian army in Caucasus, around Van Lake, behind the Turkish line, Armenian revolution broke out in 1915.

Armenian revolutionaries forced Turkish guard unit to abandon the city in 17 May 1915 and they put the Turkish part of the city on fire after announcing Van Armenian Republic. They killed totally 30.000 Turkish civil in 3 days. Turkish army regained the city in 22 June 1915.

The similar genocide results of Greek Andarts in Pontus took place mostly in Sanda and Paf.

Christians were forming the population in 7 villages of Sanda region. Christians, who were merciless mountain men, lived on a plateau of 2.500 metres high, always armed, and at the same time fond of war, welcomed the temporary Russian occupation of Sanda region in 1919 with joy and arranged attacks to nearby Turkish villages.

In 1920 Turkish government offered forgiveness to Sanda people. However, Sanda people did not accept the related conditions and violated them continuously and did not come to any agreement.

It was in Bafra that blood run like a river and it was carried out by the leadership of Germanos Karavagellis who played the leading role in corrupting the local population either Turkish or Greek.

Only a few events which describe the attitude of Christians of Bafra towards their Muslim fellow countrymen with whom they had lived in peace for centuries are mentioned below.

Under the command of Karavagellis Christians began to intense Andart phases and hit Turkish army in their back. They were especially robbing the Turkish villages to survive.

Dealing with these acts Turkish army began the Andart hunt in Bafra region. Andarts, to escape from Turkish army who chase them, took shelter in a cave which is named Virgin Mary and is near the Otkaya village on the foot of Mount Neptune in April 1917.

Andarts were 80 people and there were about 700 women and children with them. Turkish force sounded the cave and killed the wounded Andarts.

Two years later, in 15 April 1919, 12.000 Andarts attacked, with accompany of women and children to deceive Turkish people, to a neighbour Turkish town, Casur, at midnight. They carried out serious criminal acts and they did not just killed men with arms but also the men without arms. Christians killed 1000 soldiers and 400 women and children. They burned 400 houses, wounded 800 soldiers, gendarme and civil.

The leader who carried out this genocide crime against Turkish nation was the bishop of Bafra, Zinonas Agritelis, who was also the best man of Karavagellis.

As always genocide acts of Turkish people against Geeks are mentioned and the criminal actions of Greek Andarts are never remembered, we will refer to some of these as nationalist author of Pontus Anthemidis had done in his works.

The author mentions these as well as others in his book called �Revolutionary Terror, Greeks Retortion Acts against Turkish Population�:

�In December 1922, Greek Andarts attacked against untidy Turkish units and in only one operation they burned 8 Turkish villages. The Turkish villages which the Greek Andart unit passed were destroyed completely��

The retortion acts of Andarts against Turkish civil were in the fame of war law and Andart War law of the time. The same author carries on in another part of the book as:

��From now on the main sources for their supplies were Turkish villages. In September 200 Andarts invaded Sivaslı village with 150 dwellings, and burned the village completely after taking 200 animals. Five days later, they invaded Kuteti village with 70 dwellings, and after Tayipli village with 50 dwelling and Karoglar village�

After 20 days of rest, 500 Andarts and 1000 civil invaded Şehri with 600 dwellings, took all the animals and food, and burned the village with the help of the civil. The news that the captain was wounded was heard as fast as a flash on the mountains of Pontus. Everyone run to him for the help. In Cemilik�y, with the order of the captain Andarts performed retortion and destroyed everything�.

The most interesting part is that some Pontus authors, even today, narrates the genocide crimes of the Andarts of Pontus with pride. At the same time, Pontus nationalists condemn the crimes performed by the Turkish side hysterically and making a big fuss. Besides, they do not ask forgiveness from Turkish people for the crimes performed by their side while they demand that genocide should be recognised in the international field.

As it is understood, it has not been passed from these professional patriots mind even once to head towards future from now on without looking back, and to ask forgiveness for the wrongs they did to each others.

This information is presented to Greek youths, especially to Pontus origin Greek youths to listen a different view and come to their own conclusion.

**ottomans** · 07-21-2007, 01:17 AM

Re: Greek Genocide

AND THE
Bibliography:

1) Anthemidis, A, S, (1998): Independence Units of Pontus Greeks (Andart Units in Pontus) 1912 – 1924.

2) Valavanis, G, K,(1925): Contemporary Pontus History , republished in1995, Afon. Kiriakidis Publications, Salonika

3) İonnidis, S, (1870): History and Statistics of Trabzon and the Surrounding Region, - republished in 1988, Afon. Kiriakidis Publications, Salonika.

4) Nakrantzas, G, (2001): Little Asia and Origin of the Immigrants, 1922'deki Imperialist Greek Policy and Little Asia Disaster, Batavia Publications, Salonika.

5) Sotiriadis, G, (1918): Ethnic Map Showing Greeks in Balkan Peninsula and Little Asia, Londra, Edward Stanford Ltd."

**ottomans** · 07-21-2007, 01:18 AM

Re: Greek Genocide

One TURK against the world!

**ottomans** · 07-21-2007, 01:21 AM

Re: Greek Genocide

and also Turkish goverment not make a genocide! Armenian or Grek genocides which are a slander!

**melikianAvak** · 07-21-2007, 08:14 PM

Re: Greek Genocide

Originally posted by ottomans View Post

and also Turkish goverment not make a genocide! Armenian or Grek genocides which are a slander!

Get lost attajerk We don't care to listen to your lies. Believe what you want
just don't do it here.

**tamara48** · 07-21-2007, 11:26 PM

Re: Greek Genocide

Originally posted by ottomans View Post

One TURK against the world!

your nick and your ideas don't suit.Ottoman Empire had had a lot of nations.Yes,their origin,their first leader belongs to a Turkish family but they lost their Turkish identy,they gain a new face.Islam was the Ottoman Empire's face.Majority were Muslims,minority were non-muslim people.Anyway let me remind you one thing else.Ottoman sultans were not Turk!!!!All of these women were Chirstian,they were made to accept to Islam.because of the nationalism,Turks became enemy of the other nations.I don't accuse every Turk about gencoides but the attackers like you.
endly we do not belive your stupid lies.I agree with Avak.Don't waste your time here,read a book or watch a film.This is my advice.

**marx** · 07-22-2007, 09:43 PM

Re: Greek Genocide

i search for nakratzas a little bit well first of all he is not greek ...he lives in greece but he is calling himself "slavmacedonian" meaning slav(bulgarian) of former yugoslav republic ( not greek macedonian).....so i suppose you know the whole situation(speaking about slav propaganda)...secondly he is a doctor ...thirdly well noone as i saw takes him seriously...he is your best friend since he often translates turkish propaganda...
well you know what's wrong with propaganda...some truths,many more lies some scientific books as a bibliography and vuala "his truth"...

i did not read what nakratzas(lol) says...well as i said you he is a slavmacedonian(fyrom)...so his opinion doesnt worth...he is not reliable...but since i notice some demographic issues i will write down some historical facts...

first of all a few words about the next book ...well it is not a book...we are talking about 17 tomes that deal with greek history...its title is "history of greek nation"...writers of this "book" are (more than 50 )famous professors(greeks and foreigners)(and i have to notice that it was awarded by academy of athens http://www.academyofathens.gr/ecport...4&nt=18&lang=2 )
You can find these books in english language too(and others)..
so ..

province(city and its region 1912) of ANDRIANOPOLE
GREEKS MUSLIMS BULGAR. ARMEN. Israel etc
366.363 , 508.311, 107.843 , 24.060 , 19.300 , 1.096

province of CONSTANTINOPOLE

364.459 , 449.114 , 4.331 , 159.193 , 46.251 , 150.055

province of SMYRNA (gavour izmir...i wonder why?

)
449.044 , 219.494 , 415, 11.395 , 18.130 , 55.568

greek population in pontos before the great war(1914-1918) was extremely large...more than 700 .000 of ponto's citizens were greeks(notice kamil pasa accepted)..

hundred thousands greeks were living in others provinces...

more than 90% of the total population in imvros and tenedos were greeks

more than 700.000 greeks were banished between 1913-1918...until treaty of lossanes almost 1.5 million greeks are forced to leave theirs lands where their ancient ancestors lived for thousands years......
1.5 million greeks were killied by turks before 1922...(353.000 of them were greek pontians)...

and quess what, we are not speaking about the brutality of turks for almost 4 centuries...(islamization,murder) ...all the above numbers are just for 20 century!(perhaps i should add cypru's invasion and constantinopole-istanbul's pogrom)

my grandfather's brothers who lived in pontos (7!many of them kids) were hanged by the turks...

ys:do i have to answer to this bulgarian propaganda for macedonia?
i think normally those people who study history of macedonia of 20 century do know of all these thousands and thousands crimes of bulgarian partizans(komitatzis) not only at the beggining of the 20 century but also as nazie's supporters on 2 world war...
oh by the way let me write some stats of macedonia (at the beggining of 20 century.1903).... well at the provinces of monastery (nowday bitola-fyrom) and thessaloniki we have 998 greek schools with 59.640 students 561 bulgarians with 18311 students 49 romanians 2.002 students and 53 serbian schools with 1.674 schools etc ...(notice in greek schools you had to pay so that you can be accepted to study,bulgarians schools were free)...

really i am not interesting in turkish or bulgarian propaganda so i did not read your post....but i believe the above statistics really shows who needs propaganda(butchers) and who doesnt(victims)...

oh by the way speaking about bibliography this book(tome) has more than 10 pages of bibliography about the subject!!(the most are not greek) and lots of witness(just check it)

i also suggest

the great extirpation of hellenism and christianity in asia minor,jean de murat

La Questiod' Orient devant le Parlement ,Rene Puaux
Ward, Mark H. The deportations in Asia Minor, 1921-1922. London: Anglo-Hellenic League

Dobkin, Marjorie Housepian. Smyrna 1922: the destruction of a city.

the blight of asia , george horton(he was the embassador of usa for more than 40 years in otthoman empire,he was there at the day that turks set fire to smyrna)

(witness of hundred people)http://www.papasotiriou.gr/product.g...47&prid=174672

Amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/Not-Even-My-Name-Genocide/dp/0312262116/ref=sr_1_6/103-8500183-1224633?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185168315&sr=8-6

another witness(awarded by turks!!!ipekci!!)you can find the next book in turkish language also(with more than 200.000 sells,until people like you hunt it

404 Not Found

http://www.papasotiriou.gr/product.gbook.asp?pfid=1651788&prid=906027&deid=10902

search TIMES of new york (they have responses)

try to search photos of RED CROSS of past time( murders etc)

stats of ecumenical patriarch and otthoman empire.

and much more

bye
i dont want to deal with fanatic turks so i wont post nothing else...

i am terrible sorry of my english

**marx** · 07-22-2007, 10:08 PM

Re: Greek Genocide

hello Elysium ..

i am coming to the site you suggest me..

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Greek Genocide

Greek Genocide

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