Could it have been avoided?

[anileve]

This is a question that has been pondering my mind lately and I posed it to some expecting an answer that would somewhat shed some clarity on the political approach of Armenians in the past. Though it will never change the outcome of the events followed, I dare to ask and curious to know what some of you think.

In 1914 Count Voronsov-Dashkov promised the Russian Armenians on behaf of hthe czar that if they should support Russia in the war then after the war Russia would grant autonomy to the six Turkish provinces. At the same time in Turkish Armenia officials of the Young Turk gov’t appeared at a Dashnak convention in Erzurum and promised that if they should support Turkey then after the war the Turkish gov’t would grant all Armenians autonomy to be made up of certain of the Russian – Armenian provinces as well as parts of the Turkish provinces of Erzurum , Van and Bitlis.

Now it is clear to me that Armenia was of no ones concern at that time, it was simply a battlefield to the 2 vicious enemies overcome by the taste of victory and vengeance. We were only geographically important and the thought of our poor civilians never entered the world's mind.

Dashnaks agreed to fight on the side of Turks but refused to recruit Russian Armenians. That was a deadly mistake since there was an instant separation of a vulnerable nation with a passionate longing for an independent gov’t and that tore the unity of our tiny nation and put us in the situation which resulted in our people fighting against each other. I can not imagine what could have been more irrational than that.

But what could have Armenians done?

1)Staying neutral would have resulted in the anger from both nations who would have considered us traitors since we were residing within their governments and benefiting from all that was offered to us and therefore they would have deported and massacred Armenians anyway.

2) If Armenians fought on the Russian side Turks would have done what they still did.

3) If Armenians fought on the Turkish side than Russians would have just as successfully wiped them out of fear of a threat. The Russians as it is, particularly Stalin, were responsible for the murders of many prominent Armenian aristocrats. And I still remember Russian tanks rolling down those deserted Armenian streets in the enforcement of the curfew which was horrifying for me to watch.

So what do you guys think could we have been done to avoid our historical scars left forever upon our minds? What choice did Armenia have after all to escape the Genocide? Or lets face it, in the event of those complex and painful times could Genocide have been avoided all together?

I haven’t been able to come up with a resolution at all, anyway I look at it … we as we speak, and forgive my French, were xxxxED! :x

[Anonymouse]

You're a cute newbie lol.

As I have time constraints now, what I will say is that historically Armenians have been a people not devoted to central rule, they are a highly individual people.

Particularism is strong in Armenians, because of their locations, the highlands, and hence why it has been difficult for Armenians to subside throughout history and the conquering empires. They aren't a people who like to be ruled, and hence if you look at Armenians historically it would explain the confusion in politics in Armenia right now. Everyone has a high value of individualism and doesn't want to bow before another. Whereas other empires such as Assyria fell, because of central rule, and a central ruling authority in a city, Armenia was composed of loosely organized pockets and provinces and regions, not one central rule, so whereas one pocket fell to some enemy, there was always another region where Armenians life was maintained.

To me Armenians are the most lucid example of a people that have survived for centuries based on this one principle of having thier culture organized in loose regions and provinces and not one central rule, most of it due to geography as well, as opposed to Rome, or Babylon, or Assyria, or Persia, etc.

As far as 1914, neither Empire cared for Armenians, the only thing they cared for was their territory and power, as usually is the case with any imperialistic powers, particularly at a time such as 1914 when Imperialism of the 18th and 19th centuries was taking its last breaths. And the divisions between Dashnaks and other Armenians of the time, is not something that happened then and there, but rather it goes back in history to Armenians' particularism and individualism and unwillingness to bow before another authority. In a way it helped them survive all these centuries, and in another way it caused their destruction throughout as well. It is both a curse and a blessing, to quote Richard Hovannisian.

[anileve]

I’d like to consider Muppets cute, I am on the other hand would like to think am an extravagant and a unique individual with some eccentric traits. All the same though Anonymouse I could not possible compete in the contest of cuteness with you….You would overwhelm everyone without any exceptions with your intoxicating cuteness.

Getting back more to the point, I will not deny that your answer is very insightful and I do agree with you in the aspect of the lack of the central rule. There was a cluster of minor kingdoms through out Armenia. Although I do not agree that it was necessary what saved our nation from evaporating. If we recall history and compare it to present some empires are also still standing, such as India, China, Italy (Rome), Greece, Anatolia which was made up of many tribes such as Mongols and Tartars united and is still standing.

I will say that our country’s shortcoming was that it did lack that unity that you claim saved us from perish, however it is that lack of unity that did not equip Armenia with a powerful army equal to the one of their powerful enemies. If you come to think of it the only time our country was in its glory was during the reign of Tigran the Great. That was because he invested into military strategy; his mistake was that he was eager to build a new capital without securing his borders after a new won territory that was still fresh with blood.

Now what if there was a strong emphasis on the literature and history which should have been strongly recorded instead of creating so many translations of the bible. What if our military was invincible? What if the preservation of our land was our number one concern? That lack of unity is what cornered us and deprived us of land. In my opinion the reason why Armenia is one of the few that did survive is because Armenians were always able to adapt and live peacefully with others. Wherever else, with whomever else except for each other.

All in all, Mousy my question remains unanswered. What could have Armenia done in that position to prevent the outcome.

[Anonymouse]

I’d like to consider Muppets cute, I am on the other hand would like to think am an extravagant and a unique individual with some eccentric traits. All the same though Anonymouse I could not possible compete in the contest of cuteness with you….You would overwhelm everyone without any exceptions with your intoxicating cuteness.

Getting back more to the point, I will not deny that your answer is very insightful and I do agree with you in the aspect of the lack of the central rule. There was a cluster of minor kingdoms through out Armenia. Although I do not agree that it was necessary what saved our nation from evaporating. If we recall history and compare it to present some empires are also still standing, such as India, China, Italy (Rome), Greece, Anatolia which was made up of many tribes such as Mongols and Tartars united and is still standing.

I will say that our country’s shortcoming was that it did lack that unity that you claim saved us from perish, however it is that lack of unity that did not equip Armenia with a powerful army equal to the one of their powerful enemies. If you come to think of it the only time our country was in its glory was during the reign of Tigran the Great. That was because he invested into military strategy; his mistake was that he was eager to build a new capital without securing his borders after a new won territory that was still fresh with blood.

Now what if there was a strong emphasis on the literature and history which should have been strongly recorded instead of creating so many translations of the bible. What if our military was invincible? What if the preservation of our land was our number one concern? That lack of unity is what cornered us and deprived us of land. In my opinion the reason why Armenia is one of the few that did survive is because Armenians were always able to adapt and live peacefully with others. Wherever else, with whomever else except for each other.

All in all, Mousy my question remains unanswered. What could have Armenia done in that position to prevent the outcome.

Ahhh, but remember, these are not the same Empires as we knew them in their day. Rome of today, a city, is part of Italy, a totally different country and people, than the Republic of Rome or even the Empire.

That is the gist of what I am trying to say. History is not a particular point in time, but rather a process. The past isn't the determinent of what the future will be necessarily. All peoples and cultures change with time. The people who founded the civilization of Rome, are very different from what we know as Italians today. If for example the creators of a certain culture vanish, then so goes their culture with them. Instead this gives birth to a new culture that came about from the new peoples that formed.

Even China has been through many shifts and changes, and the present Chinese are different from the many dynasties and foreigns rules it had.

India is another can of worms, with the Aryan invasions, and depending on what part of India you are at you have different dialects and religions, as well as ethnic groups.

The Greeks of today as well are not who they were during the glory days of Athens and the Greek city states, they themselves being invaded and occupied and conquered by other peoples throughout history as well.

Even the present Turks are not the same people who invaded from Asia. While Mongolian in origin and majority, they have mixed, most often forcibly, with Greeks, Armenians, and other Anatolian peoples to produce the current Turks.

There might be a varying degree as to who has remained isolated the most, but for the most part, the large and populous empires that have grown and expanded eventually changed.

Smaller cultures such as Armenians didn't have the means of subjugating and absorbing other peoples, hence its versatility and resilience.

While you are right that unity was lacking and during Tigran there was perhaps the greatest unity, however it was shortlived for a small people such as Armenians, for it goes to show what I have been saying that to have a strong centrally organized system makes you vulnerable and so it did. Its just that it took longer for the other empires to perish because they were bigger than Armenians.

As far as your question, there is no answer really, it was the inevitability of time. The geographic inconvenience of Armenia is the real problem here for whch I think there is no real answer. That is our burden to bear and has been so throughout millenia, hence it has been a blessing and curse. I am strongly of this opinion for I see no other alternative.

[hyeclass]

maman gmpa who reads that anyways???

[anileve]

maman gmpa who reads that anyways???

Let me state my 2 points here to the honorable hyeclass with so much “class”.

1) Sksbits sovori grel yev kartal hayeren yev angleren heto gri ko unkap mtkera.

2) Second of all I think the reason why you are confused is because you are in the wrong thread, scroll down to the very educational thread of “Girl’s Toylet (as you so gently put it”, there you should find material of your interest and “class”. If all of this was too complex for you to understand, I shall paraphrase it…

If you have nothing logical to contribute, keep your fingers out of it, you are spoiling the flow!

[sSsflamesSs]

maman gmpa who reads that anyways???

Let me state my 2 points here to the honorable hyeclass with so much “class”.

1) Sksbits sovori grel yev kartal hayeren yev angleren heto gri ko unkap mtkera.

2) Second of all I think the reason why you are confused is because you are in the wrong thread, scroll down to the very educational thread of “Girl’s Toylet (as you so gently put it”, there you should find material of your interest and “class”. If all of this was too complex for you to understand, I shall paraphrase it…

If you have nothing logical to contribute, keep your fingers out of it, you are spoiling the flow!

We probably forgot to mention that he suffers from coprolalia, a division of Tourette's Syndrome (rare, but nevertheless fits his condition pretty damn well). Don't mind him.

[anileve]

maman gmpa who reads that anyways???

Let me state my 2 points here to the honorable hyeclass with so much “class”.

1) Sksbits sovori grel yev kartal hayeren yev angleren heto gri ko unkap mtkera.

2) Second of all I think the reason why you are confused is because you are in the wrong thread, scroll down to the very educational thread of “Girl’s Toylet (as you so gently put it”, there you should find material of your interest and “class”. If all of this was too complex for you to understand, I shall paraphrase it…

If you have nothing logical to contribute, keep your fingers out of it, you are spoiling the flow!

We probably forgot to mention that he suffers from coprolalia, a division of Tourette's Syndrome (rare, but nevertheless fits his condition pretty damn well). Don't mind him.

Thank you flames, I shall try to take that into a consideration... next time I will brake the words into syllables.

Perhaps you would like to contribute your thoughts on this subject, I am very curious to know what everyone thinks.

[anileve]

Anon, thanks for pointing out the obvious, yes of course they are not the same. Perhaps the only governments that are the same are those of the Indian tribes in the jungles of Brazil. Evolution takes place and every empire had it’s moment of glory that has faded; that is the cycle of life. For the time being America is that victorious empire but it’s time will also expire and a new power will emerge.

The fact is that even though virtually every country has undergone changes, they are still the same countries and are still standing. No one gov’t including Armenia is the same it was 500 years ago. Armenia has changed also, where as it used to be primarily dominated by the farm life, now it is undergoing a technological and industrial advancement.

India and Greece as you pointed out are a different can of worms. If you can remember Greece broke away from the Turks in 1832 and established an independent gov’t. India with the strong leadership of Gandhi and his promotion of unity broke away from the British. Greeks interestingly enough rebelled and the Armenians still remained comfortably under the Ottomans until they were shattered in 1894-1896. Through out our history we were ruled by virtually all of the world’s major powers.

And you are wrong Armenians had also their conquests dated back to 1256-62 the Armenian inhabited of lands of Capadoccia, Herclia, Manion, the cities of Marash, Aintab and Pehesin were annexed to Kilikia. Armenians if processed unity would have invaded other nations, but they had a very weak strategy. What about Basil I who murdered his “confidant” Bardas? Armenians had that ego and machismo to prove that they were worriers inside also. They just never organized a unity.

Now you raise a point that central organized system makes you vulnerable, but the lack of it makes you even more so.

I still strongly stand my ground on the issue that the reason why we lack that unity is because as someone put it “One of the main problems we face as Armenians, is that we each think that our opinions and the stance held by organizations that we adhere to are necessarily the correct ones.” Everyone thinks that his opinion is superior to his neighbors or friends. Even now the parliament has a hard time executing proper actions because people refuse to act in unity, everyone clings to their own resolutions. That is the failure.

I think our situation could have been avoided. If only Armenians inspired by the movement of the Greeks, separated themselves from the Ottomans there could have a slight chance of avoiding both of the incidents. Armenians on the other hand comfortable with the governance of the foreign nation resorted to just staying put, since each one wanted to be the one to call the shots so you just rely on mediation of the third party which in this case was the Ottoman empire.

I know it sounds rough but it is the closet it comes to changing the course of history.

[anileve]

Don't mean to distract from the discussion, but you're from NYC? Um, like who are you? You can send me a private message if you want.

Like who do you think I am? Perhaps I am that woman that passes by your window and stares in a hopeless expectation that you might approach the window and throw a glance towards me and that for an instant the world will twirl in the flames of passion.

So do you have a good idea of my identity now?