1er aout 1926 : Mustapha Kemal Pasha :

[armenianweb]

1er aout 1926 : Mustapha Kemal Pasha :

http://www.armenews.com/article.php3?id_article=38326

[Greekaiser]

1er aout 1926 : Mustapha Kemal Pasha :
http://www.armenews.com/article.php3?id_article=38326

Can I ask something?
Is there any undoubted proof that this quote is real?
I give this quote to many turks and nobody ,ever, believes me.
If anyone has proof, please post it here.

[anila]

Can I ask something?
Is there any undoubted proof that this quote is real?
I give this quote to many turks and nobody ,ever, believes me.
If anyone has proof, please post it here.

I think Mustafa Kemal's stance on the massacres prior and early into the Republic is indisputable. There are several sources which show he acknowledged the CUP programs and in one source, one of his aides even gives a number: at least 800000 Armenians were inhumanely killed by the CUP Government(Vakit and Alemdar Newspapers, March 15th 1919.) These are:

"Rauf Orbay'in Hatiralari"(Memoirs of Rauf Orbay), Yakin Tarihimiz(Our Recent History) Vol. III, p 179.

Ataturk'un TBMM Acik ve Gizli Oturumlarindaki Konusmalari(Ataturk's Speeches in the Public and Secret Sessions of the Assembly), vol I(Ankara, 1992) p59.

I am copying these sources from the Reference list in Taner Akcam's From Empire to Republic. If you are interested in a detailed description of Kemal's policies regarding minorities in the early days of the Republic, among other things, I suggest you read it.

It is interesting how statements made by Ataturk early on stand in great odds with the policies of denial that would come into effect less than a decade after the Republic was founded. There are many reasons for itne being the attitude of the Entente towards the enforcement of legal proceedings. They presented it as a package deal with the partitioning of the Empire(in fact the pseudo-colonial plans greatly undermined the humanitarian aspect of the Sevres stipulations) and when the partitioning aspect was unrealized due to the success of the Independence movement, so were the other aspects. Of course I am not stating this to shift the blame of denial to the Entente states but at least as one factor that contributed to the pursuing of denial with such unreasonable fervor.

It is not surprising that Turks you speak to won't accept this. Since his death, Ataturk has been turned into a deity: he is the flawless example of the Turkish ubermensch and any opposition to his person, history or ideas is the strongest of taboos. If Ataturk has indeed made these statements(which he did) a Turk's obligation would be to agree with him which means acknowledging the Armenian Massacres. Another denial fixes the problem however.

[imported_Anomaly]

one of his aides even gives a number: at least 800000 Armenians were inhumanely killed by the CUP Government(Vakit and Alemdar Newspapers, March 15th 1919.) These are:

"Rauf Orbay'in Hatiralari"(Memoirs of Rauf Orbay), Yakin Tarihimiz(Our Recent History) Vol. III, p 179.

Ataturk'un TBMM Acik ve Gizli Oturumlarindaki Konusmalari(Ataturk's Speeches in the Public and Secret Sessions of the Assembly), vol I(Ankara, 1992) p59.

The figure of 800,000 deaths actually comes from the official Ottoman statistics for 1915 - 1918 provided by Cemal's bureau (statistics released in publishing - Ottoman Gazette Takvimi Vekâyi No. 3909, July 21, 1920, pp. 3, 4). These statistics were obtained for the bureau by Mustafa Arif (Interior Minister), and only count those that were massacred during "deportations/relocations". They do NOT include the number of Armenian soldiers who were disarmed and killed in February of 1915.

There is only one reference to the silly figure of 300,000 deaths that Turkey so vehemently sticks to: Talat Pasha. How he came to this figure is a mystery, as there are no references to his sources or data. Yet, Turkey has come to rely on this completely unreliable number.

Turkey also likes to claim that Armenians have inflated the figures throughout the years to the current 1.5 million. However, that 1.5 million figure actually comes from German & Austrian officials who stated 1.5 & 1.2 million on SEVERAL occasions.

• Oct 29, 1915 report from Dr. Arthur Chevalier de Nadamlenzki of the Austria-Hungary Adrianople (Edirne) consul: For the entire Ottoman Empire 1.5 million had already been deported (Ibid. 12 Tiirkei/463, Z.94/P).
• Jul 2, 1916 report: As early as February 1916, 1.5 million Armenians destroyed (Volkswirtschaftliche Studien in der Türkei, A. A. Türkei, 134/35, A18613).
• May 27, 1916 report from Foreign Office Intelligence Director Erzberger: 1.5 million Armenians destroyed (A.A. Türkei 183/42, A13959).
• Oct 4, 1916 report from German Interim Ambassador to Turkey Wilhelm Radowitz: 1.5 million Armenians destroyed, 425,000 survive (A.A. Türkei 183/44, A27493).
• Mar 13, 1918 report to Vienna from Dr. Kwatkiowski of the Austrian consul at Trabzon and Samsun: 1 million deported in the six eastern provinces, most died (Austrian Foreign Ministry Archives 12 Türkei/380, ZI.17/pol and 12 Türkei/463, Z.94/P).
• 1918 report from German major Franz Karl Endres serving in the Turkish army: 1.2 million Armenians perished (Die Türkei. Munich, CH Beck, 1918, p. 161).

...aaaaaand so forth. I could go on with quite a bit more, but you get the picture. Though none of these figures are guarantees, they paint quite the interesting picture in contrast to figures offered by others, especially considering the direct involvement of many of these people in the extermination project.

[imported_Anomaly]

Can I ask something?
Is there any undoubted proof that this quote is real?
I give this quote to many turks and nobody ,ever, believes me.
If anyone has proof, please post it here.

I don't believe it's real. No one has been able to find anything on the existence of the author, or evidence of that article being printed. This doesn't look good:

http://www.

I know it's the site of a denialist, but the points are valid never the less.

[Steph]

Anomaly, why don't you delete that link ? Really unneccesary, uh?

Thanks in anticipation.

[Joseph]

How much more evidence is needed? Below is a proof enough; a link with photo evidence of the actual article itself.

http://www.armenews.com/article.php3?id_article=38326

[Greekaiser]

How much more evidence is needed? Below is a proof enough; a link with photo evidence of the actual article itself.

http://www.armenews.com/article.php3?id_article=38326

its not enough
a turk may say that this is constructed
believe me :its easy to construct one
is there the real newspaper somewhere?
why they don't show it to the turk fascists?

[Joseph]

its not enough
a turk may say that this is constructed
believe me :its easy to construct one
is there the real newspaper somewhere?
why they don't show it to the turk fascists?

This document has been around since it was first printed in '26. I do not personally have a copy of it but I can deduce that the fact that the image of the that newspaper has been kicking around for over 80 years, it is not a forgery. Thought the newspaper company has been defunct for quite some time, my guess is that an original can be found in the Library of Congress, along with other original documents that attest to the Genocide.

If on Judgment Day, God descended from Heaven and testified to the truth of the genocide of Armenians, Assyrians on Pontus Greeks; the Turks would still ask for more proof or claim God is fabricating the evidence. They neither want to or are prepared to believe.

And on the flipside when mentioning Turkish/Ottoman documents that support the reality of the Genocide, the Turks will dismiss all of them as forgeries, implying the documents in the Ottoman archives supporting their "thesis" have not been selected, manipulated, edited, and doctored in any way; that they are clean.

[imported_Anomaly]

If on Judgment Day, God descended from Heaven and testified to the truth of the genocide of Armenians, Assyrians on Pontus Greeks; the Turks would still ask for more proof or claim God is fabricating the evidence. They neither want to or are prepared to believe.

And on the flipside when mentioning Turkish/Ottoman documents that support the reality of the Genocide, the Turks will dismiss all of them as forgeries, implying the documents in the Ottoman archives supporting their "thesis" have not been selected, manipulated, edited, and doctored in any way; that they are clean.

I agree with all of this. I think Ataturk's attitude on this subject was pretty evident for anyone that has researched his other documents/speeches, just as anila said. However, that does not mean the Turks are wrong in every single instance where they declare something is a forgery.

In this case, all we have is this photograph of this article that I haven't seen until more recently. Joseph, you said this article has been kicked around for 80 years. Are there any sites or books that cite this article that I could look into? Has anyone found/tried finding the original in the Library of Congress or elsewhere? Has anyone tracked down the original author, or anyone related to the publishing of it? Because if this indeed can be proven, I don't know why Dadrian hasn't done so as opposed to merely insisting that it's real. I don't say this to diminish the Armenian side, but we certainly don't need to give the Turks any room to say "see??? We were right! The Armenian case is built on lies". I know they are obviously going to do this no matter what, just as you said, but I'd rather not use any questionable evidence when making my case so as to avoid non-Turks/Armenians getting the wrong impression when called out on these things.

And steph, why is it unnecessary? A member asked if the legitimacy of this article has been proven, and I provided a link Turkish claims of debunking this article, and the theories behind it. I'd say it's MORE than necessary. If you're going to fight the enemy, you must know the enemy's argument.