Turkey not European: Sarkozy

[Hovik]

Turkey not European: Sarkozy

ABHaber 20.05.2005

The Middle Eastern countries of Israel and Lebanon were more European
than Turkey, according to the man who may well be the next president
of France.

Nicolas Sarkozy, the chairman of France's ruling centre right Union
for Popular Movement, and tipped to be a candidate in the 2007 French
presidential election, said Thursday that while he did not opposed
to either Muslim countries or Turkey itself, he did not want to see
an Asian nation as part of the European Union.

Turkey has tried to join the EU since 1963 and if it was European it
would have been a member by now, Sarkozy said.

Having what he described as an Asian country in the EU would bring
problems such as the Kurds and Hizbullah to the bloc, he said.

[Reincarnated Am]

The Middle Eastern countries of Israel and Lebanon were more European
than Turkey, according to the man who may well be the next president
of France.

[Hovik]

Well, there is quite a bit of truth to that... can't deny that - although Turks probably can find a way - they can deny just about anything...

[Hovik]

Democracy in the Region has a long way to go - both in Turkey and its friends. Armenia, unlike Turykey, isn't kissing the collective duff of the EU begging to let them in, so it frankly isn't important.

Karabagh and its historical Armenian population were given by Stalin to Azerbaijan as a present as if they, their land, and lives were some sort of material monopoly piece. The courage of our fighters and countrymen who helped Karabagh gain and maintain independence is the only RESOLUTION needed (by the way, our freedom and territorial integrity are not to be decided by acceptance by 3rd party (ie. UN, EU). Does that remind you of someone? - Israel never has and never will allow a 3rd party to determine the ligitimacy of their self-determination and to not allow is a crime. Israel consistently ignores UN and US resolutions which it does not agree with. This is no different. You can help Azeris, you can send them guns, bullets, and money. You will never understand the might of people who don't have all your fancy weapons and outnumbering troops, when they fight with their hearts for what they know is rightfully theirs, and you will never understand the weakness of the enemy who doesn't believe in what he is fighting for and having the knowlege that it doesn't belong to him.

[pathfinder]

But, you work non-stop to make the parliaments of other countries accept your claims of what you call Armenian genocide.. Why are you seeking help from third parties in this matter, but not when it comes to Karabag?

-Why would we seek HELP when Karabakh is finally where it belongs?
-Why would we seek HELP when the life for our people in Karabakh is starting to bloom?
-Why would we seek HELP when we don't need HELP?

-The reason we seek HELP from other countires for Armenian genocide is because our country alone doesn't have the power to make your shameless country face its past and recognize its crimes.

[Hovik]

Hovik,
So, where do the Armenians in Karabagh get their "not so fancy weapons" from and kill the Azeri Turks there? Don't talk like you don't get any support from other countries..

Slow down cowboy, I never said Armenians don't get support in Artsakh. We do! And God bless those who support us. We hope to continue to get assistance there. Of course our ally Russia aren't a bunch of girls who blockade Azerbaijan because it is on the opposing side in a conflict. As for the source of the weapons we use in Karabagh, people sold their belongings just to scrape enough change together to buy a gun, a lot of ammunition was hand made just because the money wasn't there to buy it new (this caused a lot of terrible accidents with low quality craftsmanship). I cannot end this topic without thanking Russia for the weapons they delivered, of course more were needed, but they gave what they could and that is what was important. You miss the point though again - what was in our hearts is what won that war. Winning Artsakh was our way of saying enough is enough, we will no longer allow Turks - ANY TURKS - to take our land from us and mistreat our people. Artsakh was the first case of Armenian land being reunited with Armenia proper in centuries. It is the beginning of a new era in which Armenia will no longer be walked all over by Turks, if it upsets you that you won't have any "infidels" to kick around anymore tough $h!t...

When it comes to the resolution in Karabag, you claim the only resolution is the courage of your fighters (fighters according to you of course). But, you work non-stop to make the parliaments of other countries accept your claims of what you call Armenian genocide.. Why are you seeking help from third parties in this matter, but not when it comes to Karabag?

I am beginning to think your name is quite appropriate. I guess you need more help as your name indicates, in understanding this: In due time, the international community will eventually recognize Artsakh as independent. We encourage this as it is in the interest of the international community second, and in the interest of those who wish to self determine in Artsakh first. So no, the determination and success of our fighters is not the ONLY resolution, but it is surely foremost, and independent of anyone elses resolution. We have a right to self-determination in Artsakh, and we will maintain that right by any and all means necessary.

Now, what the drive for Armenian Genocide recognition has to do with Artsakh in your analogy I haven't a clue. There is no comparison and no correlation between the two subjects. Understand the difference. We do currently, and will continue in the future to seek help from the international community on both issues. That does not mean that the UN or the EU or the US or anyone else will tell us wether we have the right to self-determination in our homeland, or the right to have our Holocaust recognized by governments who do not cave into your denailist propaganda.

[Hovik]

Pathfinder,

You say Karabag is where it belongs now.. But this is your point of view. Azeri people don't agree with you on that I believe. So, it is still an international issue, which might require some third parties' involvement in the process.

MUCHhelpneeded,
You again miss the point, we don't care what Azeri people agree with or disagree with when it comes to our well being. azeri turks didn't take care of the land or people when it was under their control which was poor judgement on their part, so why should we care what judgements they make now that we are practicing our right to freedom? It doesn't matter what Azeris think on the issue, it is not opinion it is fact, there is no room to interpret here.

Armenia literally invaded a land which is in the middle of Azebaijan, not even at the border!

Just because it isn't at the border doesn't mean its in the middle... it isn't. Territories such as Kelbajar which isn't even part of Artsakh proper have 6th century Armenian churches on them - don't get to thinking that land is Azeri just because we don't draw it on the maps of Artsakh. I don't think whatever you are trying to say about the geographical location of Artsakh has any importance to anyone. Artsakh is Artsakh, Armenia is Armenia - thats it. A group of peoples right to self determination has nothing to do with geographical location in relation to the middle of another territory - sorry you don't make any sense.

As you know it is one of the main reasons why the border between Armenia and Turkey is closed.. This problem will not go away and I am sure, soon enough, you will need help on this matter as well..

You are right, Turkey is the only country pathetic enough to close a border for such an issue. Guess what? Armenia had 13% GDP growth last year, I would say they're doing alright without your little border open. Keep it closed until you are ready to mature as a government and as a society - afterall Austria said this week your country is still 2 decades away from EU - maybe that should tell you a little something about your mentality. I agree the problem could take a long time to go away, but we're all waiting for you to drop your preconditions.

I absolutely disagree with you on your comment about my country that it is shameless. I think it is one of the most beautiful places on this earth, with its wonderful people.

Ummm, being shameless has nothing to do with being beautiful. You are shameless, stubborn, and living a collective lie. But, I must say, you are correct, your country IS one of the most beautiful places on earth - 50% of it anyway. The 50% on the east, known as "Western Armenia", that IS for sure one of the most beautiful places. I know this because Armenians lived on it for thousands of years, because they built their beautiful architecture and thrived in their beautiful culture on that land until it was destroyed by your Ottoman fathers. The land is still there, and still beautiful - and still ours, no matter who's borders it is in. I am sure many of the people are wonderful too, not all of you in Turkey are so ignorant and sheep to your government. I know that there are a majority that are more humane than you, who don't deny their countries past, and who wish your government would stop playing games with the rest of your heads and let reconciliation take place.

I don't want to level with you here.. We face with our past, but you cannot dictate how we're going to do that.. you want us to face the past that you've rewritten for us! That is not going to happen.. Get all the help you can!

You do what? Yeah right, when did you ever face your past? What guilt have you admitted? Give examples! We cannot dictate - we are not in such a position. All we can do is encourage you to recognize your past - it is up to you to make the decision to do so. One thing is for sure, we are going to be like a hemroid in your ass until you do, it doesn't matter if it is this century or the next or 10 down the road, you will be haunted by the ghosts of your victims and those who refuse to allow them to go unburied until the end of time or until you recognize the crimes committed, whichever comes first. Go study yoursleves before saying who rewrites what...

[Hovik]

Hovik,

I decided to leave this (and other forums) forum already before I read your comments. Thanks for taking the time to respond to my comments..I have a lot to say of course in response to your reply, but as I said I am leaving..

Whats wrong help? you say "I would respond, but I'm leaving ...." and then you respond anyway, and tell me not to reply to your response. Doesn't that seem like non-sense to anyone? I'm replying anway, if you can't handle the debate then go ahead and surrender with your lame excuses.

The only thing I can't help mentioning is that it is very idiotic for you to call Turkey pathetic to close its border.

Yeah, that isn't the ONLY thing you can't help mentioning - you have a full categorical response here...
Well tell that to the western world to which you make so much effort to pretend you belong to. They are all calling for you to open the border. Surely they wouldn't tell you that if they believed it is justified.

You say Armenia didn't invade the middle of Azerbaijan because everywhere is Armenia, right?

No, not right! I say Armenia didn't invade the middle of Azerbaijan because I am capable of picking up a map of Azerbaijan and locating the middle of the country. Therefore I am capable of seeing that Artsakh is NOT in the middle of the map. It is in the far southwest corner of the map. For any logically reasoning person, it wouldn't seem believable that Armenians could have claims to a territory in the middle of Azerbaijan while the Armenian state is hundreds of kilometers west. We all know how it happened... Stalin broke off 2 pieces of Armenia and threw them to his buddies in Azerbaijan. Those pieces would of course have to be attached at that time to mainland Armenia (not the middle of Azerbaijan as you so ignorantly stated).[/QUOTE]

So, from the Caspian Sea to Ankara (maybe even more, you define it) is Armenia according to you, isn't it?

How I define it is inconsequential. Although the Armenian state once spanned the Black and Caspian Seas, I don't think many Armenians believe this scenario fits the definition of the Armenian homeland. Furthermore I don't believe many Armenians believe Ankara was ever part of the Armenian homeland, if this belief exists I am not aware of it. We know there was a formal Armenian state documented in the 6th century B.C. that included much of what is today Turkey, and flourished until invaded and occupied by the Ottoman Empire 2 millenia into the existence of ARMENIA on these territories. So your little 4 century ottoman reign has little implication towards the ownership of these lands if you ask most people.

And you are awfully wrong that there is a mojority of people in Turkey more responsive and understanding to this issue then I am.

You are wholly ignorant if you deny the growing numbers of people in Turkish population that are getting fed up with the Turkish government's denialist and evasive tactics with regard to this issue. They tell you what to think about it in your schools, being sure to teach you only what they believe through your ministers of education, by enforcing group essays and discussions on the topic. They mockingly face the west and say "yeah we are open to discussion and encourage Turkish, Armenian and International historical review. Then, when the conference is organized and hours away from taking place in Istanbul recently, what did they do? Erdogan himself cancelled it. Who is that a slap in the face to? You may think Armenians, but think again! Its a slap in the face to the society that they lie to over and over. Its a slap in YOUR COLLECTIVE TURKISH FACE. You are being cheated, decieved, and played like puppets. Doesn't it upset you? or are you all too blind to see it? The world is amazed at the way your government treats you like a bunch of lambs, telling you what to think, feel, say, and do - and that is all you are to them, your mouthpieces spreading their garbage. Keep getting slapped in the face. Keep letting ignorance allow you to not question why your government would authorize a historical review and then cancel it just before it begins.

If you cannot reason with me, then good luck to you! Also, you're not qualified to judge my humanity.. As I said in another forum (I am writing it here to make sure that you read it also), I am leaving this discussion for my own sake, because you're only pushing me to the other side (making me a sheep to my government as you put it).

Here is the stong message HELP is sending to everyone... "if you don't agree with me, i'll ummmm, i'll run away with my tail between my legs" Wow, that isn't going to get you very far in your career of Genocide denial - toughen up.

As a denialist EVERYONE is qualified to judge your character as being inhumane. The Armenian Genocide is not open to your interpretation - it is historical fact, and those who deny it have NO humanity and no honor.

If you leave because I pushed you to the other side, you are quite weak in your principals. I don't think I should have the power to push you to the "other side" from a few posts...

I will listen some Armenian music now and remember the people who suffered (Turks and Armenians) and pray for their souls...

So, even if you want to respond to this, please do not quote from my comments to force me respond to it, because this is the last time I will be talking to you..

all the best,

Well, not too much to say here. I responded - too bad. I quoted yor comments - too bad. On the good side - I can't "force" you to respond to it. As you said - you've already left anyway, and I pushed you to the other side. And of course this is the "last time" you'll be talking to me.

Good riddance - any other denialist xenophobs can leave now too.

[Gavur]

Baroness Karoline Cox Visits Nkr For 60th Time

BARONESS KAROLINE COX VISITS NKR FOR 60TH TIME

STEPANAKERT, SEPTEMBER 13. ARMINFO. Vice-Speaker of House of Lords of British Parliament, baroness Karoline Cox is in Narogno Karabakh within the framework of "Pilgrimage to Artsakh" mission. 20 people representing various christian organizations of Great Britain are in the delegation. It is the 60th visit of baroness to Karabakh, the first was in 1989.

ARMINFO's reporter in Stepanakert informs, that NKR Parliament Speaker Ashot Ghulyan noted at a meeting with the delegation that "baroness Cox had always been with Artsakh people - during the hardest war, in heavy post-war years and today". He presented Cox a recently published photograph album about Karabakh. Cox, in her turn, noted that "visits to Karabakh give her gladness, every time colliding her with heroism and courage of people living on this small Armenian land".

A rehabilitation Center establishing 7 years ago under the aegis of "World Christian Solidarity" and on baroness's initiative is named after Cox. She expressed readiness to assist the center in future. too. "Pilgrimage to Artsakh" has been organized by Cox for the 3rd time. First pilgrimage took place in 2001 and was dedicated to the 1700th anniversary of the Armenian Apostolic Church.

[Joseph]

Whats wrong help? you say "I would respond, but I'm leaving ...." and then you respond anyway, and tell me not to reply to your response. Doesn't that seem like non-sense to anyone? I'm replying anway, if you can't handle the debate then go ahead and surrender with your lame excuses.



Yeah, that isn't the ONLY thing you can't help mentioning - you have a full categorical response here...
Well tell that to the western world to which you make so much effort to pretend you belong to. They are all calling for you to open the border. Surely they wouldn't tell you that if they believed it is justified.



No, not right! I say Armenia didn't invade the middle of Azerbaijan because I am capable of picking up a map of Azerbaijan and locating the middle of the country. Therefore I am capable of seeing that Artsakh is NOT in the middle of the map. It is in the far southwest corner of the map. For any logically reasoning person, it wouldn't seem believable that Armenians could have claims to a territory in the middle of Azerbaijan while the Armenian state is hundreds of kilometers west. We all know how it happened... Stalin broke off 2 pieces of Armenia and threw them to his buddies in Azerbaijan. Those pieces would of course have to be attached at that time to mainland Armenia (not the middle of Azerbaijan as you so ignorantly stated).

How I define it is inconsequential. Although the Armenian state once spanned the Black and Caspian Seas, I don't think many Armenians believe this scenario fits the definition of the Armenian homeland. Furthermore I don't believe many Armenians believe Ankara was ever part of the Armenian homeland, if this belief exists I am not aware of it. We know there was a formal Armenian state documented in the 6th century B.C. that included much of what is today Turkey, and flourished until invaded and occupied by the Ottoman Empire 2 millenia into the existence of ARMENIA on these territories. So your little 4 century ottoman reign has little implication towards the ownership of these lands if you ask most people.


You are wholly ignorant if you deny the growing numbers of people in Turkish population that are getting fed up with the Turkish government's denialist and evasive tactics with regard to this issue. They tell you what to think about it in your schools, being sure to teach you only what they believe through your ministers of education, by enforcing group essays and discussions on the topic. They mockingly face the west and say "yeah we are open to discussion and encourage Turkish, Armenian and International historical review. Then, when the conference is organized and hours away from taking place in Istanbul recently, what did they do? Erdogan himself cancelled it. Who is that a slap in the face to? You may think Armenians, but think again! Its a slap in the face to the society that they lie to over and over. Its a slap in YOUR COLLECTIVE TURKISH FACE. You are being cheated, decieved, and played like puppets. Doesn't it upset you? or are you all too blind to see it? The world is amazed at the way your government treats you like a bunch of lambs, telling you what to think, feel, say, and do - and that is all you are to them, your mouthpieces spreading their garbage. Keep getting slapped in the face. Keep letting ignorance allow you to not question why your government would authorize a historical review and then cancel it just before it begins.



Here is the stong message HELP is sending to everyone... "if you don't agree with me, i'll ummmm, i'll run away with my tail between my legs" Wow, that isn't going to get you very far in your career of Genocide denial - toughen up.

As a denialist EVERYONE is qualified to judge your character as being inhumane. The Armenian Genocide is not open to your interpretation - it is historical fact, and those who deny it have NO humanity and no honor.

If you leave because I pushed you to the other side, you are quite weak in your principals. I don't think I should have the power to push you to the "other side" from a few posts...

I will listen some Armenian music now and remember the people who suffered (Turks and Armenians) and pray for their souls...



Well, not too much to say here. I responded - too bad. I quoted yor comments - too bad. On the good side - I can't "force" you to respond to it. As you said - you've already left anyway, and I pushed you to the other side. And of course this is the "last time" you'll be talking to me.

Good riddance - any other denialist xenophobs can leave now too.[/QUOTE]


Classic from 2005. Nice Hovik!