Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules (Everyone Must Read!!!)

1] What you CAN NOT post.

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is:
- abusive
- vulgar
- hateful
- harassing
- personal attacks
- obscene

You also may not:
- post images that are too large (max is 500*500px)
- post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or cited properly.
- post in UPPER CASE, which is considered yelling
- post messages which insult the Armenians, Armenian culture, traditions, etc
- post racist or other intentionally insensitive material that insults or attacks another culture (including Turks)

The Ankap thread is excluded from the strict rules because that place is more relaxed and you can vent and engage in light insults and humor. Notice it's not a blank ticket, but just a place to vent. If you go into the Ankap thread, you enter at your own risk of being clowned on.
What you PROBABLY SHOULD NOT post...
Do not post information that you will regret putting out in public. This site comes up on Google, is cached, and all of that, so be aware of that as you post. Do not ask the staff to go through and delete things that you regret making available on the web for all to see because we will not do it. Think before you post!


2] Use descriptive subject lines & research your post. This means use the SEARCH.

This reduces the chances of double-posting and it also makes it easier for people to see what they do/don't want to read. Using the search function will identify existing threads on the topic so we do not have multiple threads on the same topic.

3] Keep the focus.

Each forum has a focus on a certain topic. Questions outside the scope of a certain forum will either be moved to the appropriate forum, closed, or simply be deleted. Please post your topic in the most appropriate forum. Users that keep doing this will be warned, then banned.

4] Behave as you would in a public location.

This forum is no different than a public place. Behave yourself and act like a decent human being (i.e. be respectful). If you're unable to do so, you're not welcome here and will be made to leave.

5] Respect the authority of moderators/admins.

Public discussions of moderator/admin actions are not allowed on the forum. It is also prohibited to protest moderator actions in titles, avatars, and signatures. If you don't like something that a moderator did, PM or email the moderator and try your best to resolve the problem or difference in private.

6] Promotion of sites or products is not permitted.

Advertisements are not allowed in this venue. No blatant advertising or solicitations of or for business is prohibited.
This includes, but not limited to, personal resumes and links to products or
services with which the poster is affiliated, whether or not a fee is charged
for the product or service. Spamming, in which a user posts the same message repeatedly, is also prohibited.

7] We retain the right to remove any posts and/or Members for any reason, without prior notice.


- PLEASE READ -

Members are welcome to read posts and though we encourage your active participation in the forum, it is not required. If you do participate by posting, however, we expect that on the whole you contribute something to the forum. This means that the bulk of your posts should not be in "fun" threads (e.g. Ankap, Keep & Kill, This or That, etc.). Further, while occasionally it is appropriate to simply voice your agreement or approval, not all of your posts should be of this variety: "LOL Member213!" "I agree."
If it is evident that a member is simply posting for the sake of posting, they will be removed.


8] These Rules & Guidelines may be amended at any time. (last update September 17, 2009)

If you believe an individual is repeatedly breaking the rules, please report to admin/moderator.
See more
See less

Shame on Israel and Turkey for desecrating Yad Vashem

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Shame on Israel and Turkey for desecrating Yad Vashem

    Sorry friends, this one goes back a few weeks, but it was recently made available and I thought it should be posted. Enjoy,
    Hovo

    Shame on Israel and Turkey for desecrating Yad Vashem

    Intermountain Jewish News


    May 6, 2005


    Should Pol Pot have been invited to Israel to place a wreath at Yad Vashem,
    Israel's Holocaust memorial? If the murderer of millions of Cambodians were
    escorted by Israeli officials to a Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem, wouldn't
    blasphemy be the perfect word for the act?

    Should Idi Amin have been allowed to appear at Yad Vashem?

    What about the leaders of the Rwandan genocide, who took their machetes to
    800,000 innocent human beings in 1994? Should Israel walk them down the
    aisle, wreaths in hand, to the Hall of Remembrance at Yad Vashem? Blasphemy,
    indeed.

    Unlike Pol Pot and the other mass murderers, the prime minister of Turkey has
    no blood on his hands, but the moral stench was the same this week when
    Israel had Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan place a wreath at Yad
    Vashem. Israel might as well have brought along convicted Holocaust denier
    David Irving for the ceremony. Shame on Israel for engaging in its own form
    of Holocaust denial. Turkey is the perpetrator of the first genocide in
    modern times, the Armenian genocide. And Turkey is no Germany: Germany is
    repentant. Turkey is not. Germany paid reparations. Turkey did not.
    Modern-day Turkey never acknowledged the Armenian genocide, never said, we're
    sorry. There are Holocaust memorials all over Germany; don't go look for
    Armenian memorials all over Turkey.

    The vilest form of realpolitik governs Israel-Turkey relations and, to their
    eternal shame, some in the American Jewish community join in the ugly charade
    of exonerating modern-day Turkey for the Armenian genocide. Precisely the
    kind of tendentious (not to mention outright false) "scholarship" that makes
    Jews livid when used by Holocaust deniers to diminish the Holocaust, Israel
    turns a blind eye to when Turkey uses it to diminish the Armenian genocide.

    What moral credence should Jews attribute to a head of state and Nobel Peace
    Prize winner, if he were to state that "whether" there was a Holocaust is a
    "matter for historians to decide"? No moral credence whatsoever. Yet, this is
    just what Shimon Peres, the former prime minister of Israel and a Nobel Peace
    Prize laureate, said about the Armenian genocide.

    We have here a prime case of politics trumping truth. Israel needs a positive
    relationship with Turkey. And to get it, Israel will engage in the same form
    of genocide denial that it acidly resents when others put it in the form of
    Holocaust denial. The national American Jewish Committee tags along, engaging
    in every from of sophistry to deny the undeniable: the Turkish attempt to
    wipe out the Armenian people during World War I.

    If Jews don't want the world to forget the Holocaust, how can the Jewish
    state forget the Armenian genocide? As time goes on, the 25-year gap between
    the Armenian genocide and the Holocaust will shrink to the merest dots on the
    historical map. If one dot is deniable, the next one will also be very easy
    to deny.

    The rationalizations for denial of the Armenian genocide are flimsy, indeed
    excruciating.

    * Rationalization #1: It is said that the current Turkish government was not
    responsible for the Armenian genocide. This is 100% true -- and 100%
    irrelevant. Was the current German government responsible for the Holocaust?
    Of course not. But it is this German government that has openly acknowledged
    the truth, openly repented, and paid extensive reparations. Turkey does none
    of this.

    This is highly dangerous. As time passes, no direct responsibility will be
    attributable to any government for any past genocide. Does this mean that
    Germany will gradually be exempt from honesty over its country's role in the
    Holocaust, or exempt from furthering Holocaust education? For Israel and the
    national American Jewish Committee to let the current Turkish government off
    the hook for the Armenian genocide 90 years ago -- which it is obviously not
    directly responsible for -- is to endanger all future education about all
    past genocides. Needless to say, the main point of genocide education is to
    prevent it. By the logic of exempting present-day Turkey from the Armenian
    genocide, genocide education will gradually halt. This is highly dangerous.

    * Rationalization #2: It is said that the Armenian deaths weren't really a
    "genocide," just a "tragedy." Not so. Of the reams of evidence to the
    contrary -- thousands of independently gathered testimonies -- here is one
    from Hans Morgenthau, the (Jewish) US ambassador to Turkey during the first
    part of WW I, in a cable to the State Department:

    "Deportations of and excesses against the peaceful Armenians is increasing,
    and from harrowing reports of eyewitnesses it appears that a campaign of race
    extermination is in progress under a pretext of reprisal against rebellion."

    Note the key phrase: race extermination. That's genocide.

    Morgenthau, as quoted in a recent report by Larry Derfner, also wrote:
    "Reports from widely scattered districts indicate a systematic attempt to
    uproot peaceful Armenian populations and . . . arbitrary efforts, terrible
    tortures, wholesale expulsions and deportations from one end of the empire to
    the other, accompanied by frequent instances of rape, pillage and murder,
    turning into massacre, to bring destruction and destitution on them."

    Note the key adjective: systematic. That's genocide.

    And yet, here we are: Turkey is allowed an honored place at Yad Vashem. And
    the national American Jewish Committee won't call the Armenian genocide by
    its name. This is a desecration.

    Unlike the national American Jewish Committee, the US Memorial Holocaust
    Museum and especially the Museum of Tolerance, affiliated with the Simon
    Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles, tell the truth. The Holocaust Museum in
    Washington mentions the Armenian genocide three times. The Museum of
    Tolerance does much more.

    The truth, the whole truth, includes this: Turkey served as a haven for Jews
    after the expulsion from Spain in 1492, and for more than 500 years
    afterward. Turkey is a secular state in a Moslem region, an important trading
    partner with Israel and an important strategic partner with the US. All true,
    deserving of recognition and indeed gratitude -- but not deserving of lies.
    The Armenian genocide is a fact. If you argue otherwise, you have to argue
    against the evidence not only of Hans Morgenthau but of Elie Wiesel, Deborah
    Lipstadt, Daniel Goldhagen, Raul Hilberg, Yehuda Bauer and countless other
    authorities.

    It should not be hard for present day Israel or Turkey to acknowledge the
    Armenian genocide, or for Turkey to commit to Armenian-genocide education.
    After all, if the present Turkish government was not responsible for this
    genocide, why the denial of the past?

    Whatever the social-psychological answer might be, it is not Israel's role to
    aid and abet genocide denial. Right now, there is genocide in Darfur.
    Directly abetting the indifference over it are those who deny genocide in the
    past. If there is anything in community and state relations that must be
    above all political considerations, it is genocide. Our humanity -- and the
    existence of humanity -- depends on it.

  • #2
    'Never Again' Was His Call to Action

    The Intelligencer


    Simon Wiesenthal became famous for his dogged pursuit of Nazis during the post-World War II era, but before he could perform his singular service to the world he first had to survive German death camps and the Soviet secret police.

    His cause - to document war crimes, find the perpetrators and then prosecute them - was not initially a popular one. Many Europeans, especially, would have preferred to put the continent's dark Nazi past behind. Later, as fugitive Nazis grew old and infirm, there was no small sentiment to leave them alone rather than go through trials.
    Some of Wiesenthal's foes did more than condemn him verbally. Death threats against him were judged serious enough that police in Vienna, Austria, posted guards at his front door. But Wiesenthal never gave up.

    Because of his work and his moral leadership, a number of high-profile Nazis were found and prosecuted, most famously Adolf Eichmann, but also, among many others: Franz Stangl, commandant of the Treblinka and Sobodor death camps; Valerian Trifa, an infamous instigator of Romanian pogroms; and Karl Silbergauer, who as a Gestapo agent arrested Anne Frank. Wiesenthal's insistence upon documentation, it should be noted, also spared people from perhaps unjust accusations.

    Wiesenthal died this week at the age of 96, having outlived most former Nazi tormentors. But we owe it to his memory - and to that of the millions who died in the Holocaust - to keep his famous admonition alive, in word and in deed: "Never again."
    "All truth passes through three stages:
    First, it is ridiculed;
    Second, it is violently opposed; and
    Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

    Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

    Comment


    • #3
      Shame on Israel for ignoring Armenian genocide

      By ROBERT SARNER





      ome things just don’t get easier with time. A few weeks ago, for the 13th time since immigrating to Israel in 1990, I again grappled with the abrupt switchover from the sadness and solemnity of Memorial Day to the unbridled festivities of Independence Day.

      But this year, it was not just the emotional somersault that left me uneasy. As I watched on TV the official ceremony that kicked off Israel’s 55th birthday, something else disturbed and disappointed me. It still does.

      Call me naive. Call me myopic. Call me a misguided party-pooper. Call me whatever you like, but I expect better from my country.

      Every year, shortly after Memorial Day ends at sunset, Israel begins its Independence Day celebrations with a moving open-air ceremony, televised live from Jerusalem’s Mount Herzl. It includes the traditional lighting of 12 torches, representing the 12 tribes of the biblical Israelites. A ministerial committee selects the torchbearers in recognition of their contributions to society and to represent different segments of the population.

      This year, Naomi Nalbandian was one of the 12 honorees. An Israeli of Armenian origin, she was selected in appreciation of her work with terror victims at Jerusalem’s Hadassah Hospital, where she is a senior nurse.

      Torchbearers prepare a few sentences to introduce themselves at the ceremony and to put in the event program. Initially, Nalbandian wrote that her grandparents fled Armenia and settled near Haifa in 1920 after passing through Lebanon and Syria. She described herself as “a third-generation survivor of the Armenian genocide, which took place in 1915.”

      But just before Independence Day, the Turkish Embassy in Tel Aviv learned that an Israeli Armenian was chosen for the ceremony and that, horror of horrors, she intended to refer to the genocide of the Armenians. In customary fashion, the country threw a temper tantrum.

      Turkey is especially sensitive about the Armenians, having long denied its role in their mass murder. Armenians charge that between 1915 and 1923, the Turks killed some 1.5 million of their people through executions, starvation and forced marches. Most historians – including Jewish Holocaust experts – agree and recognize this as genocide. For its part, Turkey maintains that while some 600,000 Armenians may have died, it was an unfortunate result of war for which it was not responsible.

      The Turkish ambassador in Israel was furious over the decision to have an Armenian light a torch even though she didn’t plan to cite Turkey by name in her genocide reference. Turkey demanded a clarification from Jerusalem on whether Nalbandian’s text represented a change in Israeli policy, which has always avoided blaming Turkey for the atrocities, or even fully acknowledging them.

      The Prime Minister’s Office, the Foreign Ministry and the Knesset all tried to placate Turkey. Knesset Speaker Reuven Rivlin and other officials entered the fray, persuading Nalbandian to delete the word “genocide” and instead refer only to “the suffering of the Armenian people.” Nalbandian said she was disappointed but added she did not want to create problems for Israel.

      On government orders, organizers scrapped the 4,000 programs already printed for the event. New ones were quickly printed at the last minute. The offensive words were also hastily erased from a plaque created for the ceremony. In the end, Turkey could rest easy as Nalbandian lit the torch and kept to the sanitized script. I cringed.

      Admittedly, Turkey is a key regional ally of Israel. It’s the only Muslim country with which Jerusalem enjoys warm relations. It provides strategic military co-operation and may one day even supply some of our fresh water. This is all highly important and should not be discounted.

      Still, Israel should not deny another people’s tragedy just to placate Turkey. Surely, if there is one country and one people that should be sensitive to this, it’s Israel and the Jews who are justly outraged by the obscenity of Holocaust deniers.

      Lamentably, Israel’s caving in to Turkey’s intimidation on the eve of Independence Day is only the latest episode in Jerusalem’s consistently spineless, evasive policy over the years. Such a suppression of truth and history is a blight on Israel’s name. By our failure to recognize this genocide, we are helping victimize the Armenians again. We should know better.

      Readers can contact Robert Sarner at [email protected].
      "All truth passes through three stages:
      First, it is ridiculed;
      Second, it is violently opposed; and
      Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

      Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

      Comment


      • #4
        Fantastic Article!!! Thank you Gavur

        Comment


        • #5
          Turkish coffee with an Armenian

          “An irreversible momentum exists now,” George was telling me, “and it’s only a matter of time before everybody formally acknowledges that it was a ‘shoah’ [he was deliberately using the Hebrew term for ‘holocaust’] that the Turks committed against us. Germany, Canada, Argentina – many governments have already passed resolutions to the effect, even though Turkey stubbornly insists that the deaths were merely a consequence of war. They won’t even admit to more than 300,000 fatalities.”

          We were squeezed into a miniscule Old City café right by the Jaffa Gate. George, a leading lay figure in the tiny Israeli Armenian community, was briefing me on the recent achievements of the long campaign to gain worldwide affirmation of the genocidal nature of the systematic massacres of some 1.5 million ethnic Armenians carried out by the Turkish regime in 1915 .

          I took a sip from my strong Turkish coffee, nodded, and said, “So 90 years of persistence have, at long last, paid off.”

          “And the irony,” George continued, “is that we are the indirect beneficiaries of the internal dilemmas of Europe. The European Union is conditioning Turkish admission on a full confession of responsibility for the crimes. Their hope, believe it or not, is that the Turks will actually refuse to do so.” He laughed.

          “You see, that way they, the European nations will have cleansed their own consciences while at the same time furnishing a perfectly legitimate excuse for keeping a large Muslim country out of their cozy club.”

          “It’s looking good,” I said.

          George hesitated a moment, planning what he wanted to say and how he would say it.

          “Yes and no. What about Israel? It’s only reasonable to assume that of all the countries, the Jewish state would have been out front on this issue. Right?”

          He studied my face for a reaction.

          “Who, if not you, can know what our nation suffered? We both lost a third of our populations. Are you aware, for instance, that the Armenian genocide doesn’t get mentioned in Israeli school textbooks, and that the Israeli government has caved into Turkish pressure by failing to come out with a formal acknowledgement of the crime?”

          I was uneasy. “Realpolitik,” I mumbled diffidently. “Turkey is our ally, the only Muslim country that we enjoy truly warm and cordial relations with. It’s purely and simply a matter of a little country’s survival in a cruel world.”

          “I guess so,” George said compliantly, not wanting press the matter further.

          “Don’t get me wrong,” he went on. “Plenty of individual Jews have been among our greatest champions. By the way, Mein Kampf is a hot bestseller in Turkey these days. Wonderful friends you pick!”

          I squirmed out of the tight corner. “So what’s the prevailing mood among the local Armenian community in light of recent successes?”

          His reply stunned me. “A great emptiness, a vacuum. In a way, you see, our struggle had become synonymous with our identity. Only now are we taking time to reassess, to fully appreciate the extent of the tragedy, the dimensions of the loss. I’m even wondering how we go about preserving our sense of peoplehood in the future.”

          “Why don’t you just take a lesson from us?” I asked. “Work to keep the sense of tragedy alive – museums, academic courses, a literature, visits to the killing fields, memorial days, movies, websites, institutions, you name it – a whole culture of reminiscence and despair.”

          He was listening attentively, saying nothing. “And then,” I added, “there is Israel, our homeland, another centre of national gravity. The Holocaust, of course, gives it added constructive meaning and poignancy. You now have your own Israel, an independent Armenia.”

          “Except that in our case,” he lamented, “we’ve lost control over most of what was our patrimony. It’s part of Turkish sovereign territory.”

          He shook his head. “We’ll never get it back. The lion’s portion of our ancient kingdom, scene of our greatness is gone forever. All that’s left us is a sliver of rocky landscape on the margins of our history.”

          “Welcome to the club of drastically shrinking homelands,” I joked.

          “Yes,” George grinned, “the tribulations of little peoples.”

          [email protected]

          Comment


          • #6
            Israel Expects Turkey To React To Iranian President's Remarks - Minister

            NTV television, Istanbul
            2 Nov 05

            The Israeli ambassador to Ankara, Pinhas Avivi, has met Foreign
            Minister Abdullah Gul and conveyed to him Israel's displeasure with
            the latest remarks by Iranian President Mahmud Ahmadinezhad, who
            recently said that Israel must be wiped off the map. Avivi gave Gul a
            letter from Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Salom. The letter includes
            Israel's expectation for a reaction to the Iranian president's remarks.

            The meeting between Gul and Avivi took place on Tuesday 1 November.

            In his letter, Silvan Shalom pointed out that the Iranian president's
            remarks could have negative consequences. Discussing Israel's concern,
            Shalom stressed that Israel expects Turkey to react to the Iranian
            president's dangerous remarks.

            Israeli diplomatic sources say that Ambassador Avivi's meeting with
            Foreign Minister Gul was very positive.

            Before the meeting, Gul had given a terse response to the criticism
            that Turkey had not reacted sufficiently strongly to the Iranian
            president's statement. Gul had stressed that Turkey shares the
            international community's reaction to the statement, and had added:
            Nobody should try to guide us on what we should or should not do.
            Attached Files
            "All truth passes through three stages:
            First, it is ridiculed;
            Second, it is violently opposed; and
            Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

            Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

            Comment

            Working...
            X