A1+: Do Not Dictate To Armenia

[Hovik]

A1+


DO NOT DICTATE TO ARMENIA
“No one must dictate to Armenia what form of governing we want to have”, said RA Foreign Minister Vardan Oskanyan referring to the negative opinion of the Venice Commission and the offer of the political Committee to include the discussion of the Armenian Constitutional Reforms into the PACE session agenda as an urgent issue.

He noted that we must admit the offers about the general European standards, but the nation must decide itself what it wants. “It is the problem of the nation”, said the Minister.

Naturally, Vardan Oskanyan preferred to speak about the RA policy directed to the recognition of the Armenian Genocide. Oskanyan announced that Armenia highly appreciates the resolution adopted by the Bundestag. This resolution is especially important for the fact that Germany admits its fault in the tragic events of 1915 and calls on Turkey to reconcile with its past.

“The Bundestag resolution is another important step in the inclusion of the Armenian issues into the Turkish commitments to the EU the coming fall”, said Vardan Oskanyan.

[Hovik]

Well, then I will be the first in the diaspora to admit that Armenia has problems if it makes you feel any better. They do not have type or depth of problems that Turkey has, and I don't think it has to do with us Dictating what type of gov't Turkey is to have...

[Hovik]

This is good to hear. I will not dispute the dept of problems but I think killing of Prime minister in the parliment should be a grave problem in terms of democracy.

And by the way what about the dictations to the Armenian state body by American and French diaspora + Karabag clique/gangs? Dont you think it is also harmful for future of democracy in Armenia?

From outside Armenia looks like a country governed by outside powers. OUtside power is still outside and does not make any change the fact whether these outsiders are French, American or KArabag Armenians.

First, If someone assassinated a member of one of the Western Governmental Executive administrations right now, it would have NOTHING to do with wether that country was a democracy or not, would it?

I do not agree with you that from outside Armenia it looks like a country governed by outside powers. Remember something I have said before in this forum - The diaspora is Armenia also. We may live in our respective diasporan countries but we are united with our comrades in Armenia in more ways than you will ever understand. And don't forget, The Ottoman Empire created our diaspora, and the Republic of Turkey has maintained it. We are your little Frankenstein! Furthermore, we have a role to play in our motherland, and we will play that role even if we cannot be , or are not there. This is done through membership in diasporan organizations etc. If this is what you are talking about when referring to outside influence, well you are right, and thats the way it's going to be. As an agressor nation, and the creator of the Armenian diaspora, Turkey and Turkish, have NO business whining about the influence exerted by our respective diasporan host countries. This is the method of representation we utilize in the situation that your countries fathers put us in, and now we are going to use it as our strength, it will continue to grow and continue to be a "problem" for Turkey until they hear our voices...

[matteo]

I do not agree with you that from outside Armenia it looks like a country governed by outside powers. Remember something I have said before in this forum - The diaspora is Armenia also. We may live in our respective diasporan countries but we are united with our comrades in Armenia in more ways than you will ever understand. And don't forget, The Ottoman Empire created our diaspora, and the Republic of Turkey has maintained it. We are your little Frankenstein! Furthermore, we have a role to play in our motherland, and we will play that role even if we cannot be , or are not there. This is done through membership in diasporan organizations etc. If this is what you are talking about when referring to outside influence, well you are right, and thats the way it's going to be. As an agressor nation, and the creator of the Armenian diaspora, Turkey and Turkish, have NO business whining about the influence exerted by our respective diasporan host countries. This is the method of representation we utilize in the situation that your countries fathers put us in, and now we are going to use it as our strength, it will continue to grow and continue to be a "problem" for Turkey until they hear our voices...

The good news is that most educated people in Turkey gradually realized that Ottomans killed many innocent Armenians, and did not bother to apologize for it. Turkish authorities therefore owe an apology not only to Armenians, but also their own citizens because of having misinformed them.

The bad news is that the more Turks become curious and read about Armenian issues, the more they find out that the barbarities and killings were rather mutual. (Even though Turkish attrocities claimed more victims than Armenian attrocites did) They find out about personalities like Dr. Dro, and General Andranik, who literally 'competed' with Talat in spilling blood, however of different ethnic groups. This of course, does not please the 'Frankenstein' who only settles for absolute denial of absolute obedience. In other words, the diaspora deliberately act deliberately intransigent, so it can maintain its 'raison d'etre': anti-Turkishness.

FYI, now there is an entire thread about the Turkish population of Yerevan, so feel free to read/ ignore / deny it.

[Tongue]

The bad news is that the more Turks become curious and read about Armenian issues, the more they find out that the barbarities and killings were rather mutual.

And that's what we call denial. I'll tell you what the bad news is matteo, the bad news is, when people become curious and want to learn more about the events of 1915, unless they live outside of Turkey, they're stuck with the fiction imaginary version of the events with Armenians doing as much killings. Are you kidding me? Those are all excuses to blame it on Armenians and not call it a genocide, without excuses Turkey can't continue its denial... though the good news is, your lies aren't bought by anyone other than your own. Armenians were known as "loyal millet", they were accepted and liked by everyone. If they ever killed turks, it started after Sultan massacred hundreds of thousands of Armenians in 1890s and was in self defense and it's mentioned in many threads on this form. All this "killing were mutual" is bull sh!t and that actually is an understatement.

[Tongue]

Tongue

I think the pandora's box is opened. Until recent years world only heard your side of the story. I think people will be curious why these two people lived peacefully for 9 centuries, why they seperated their ways.

Yeah, spread your dirty lies... and who is your audience? Turks? There is no "other" side to the story. This is like saying, people always heard the Jew side of the Jewish holocaust, but what about the German side? WHEN YOU PLAN TO EXTERMINATE A RACE AND ARE SUCCESSFUL IN MASSACRING 1.5 MILLION OF THEM, THERE IS NO OTHER SIDE TO IT.

And Tongue people will be thinkg more on the word *genocide*, and how it is used as a political propoganda tool. And they will be seeing how this word is used as a means for revenge for a lost dream of so called western Armenia.

Dear, people will start to think how filthy your nation is for committing such an ugly crime against Armenians and 90 years later, not only denying it, but counter attacking them as well.

You see how this word is being used as a political tool even in EU politics? Now this is being used as a means for political tool in internal politics by EU parties?(france, germany etc).

I don't think the EU uses it as a political word, it's more of a Turkey admit to the TRUTH and join us kind of thing... Anyhow, it doesn't matter how the EU decides to use the term, what matters is what the term means and how the incidents of 1915 are precisely defined as a genocide according to its definition.

Push it further, it will just help us not your cause. I am pretty much confortable.

We WILL push it further, all the way... and your denial only makes you look bad not us. After your country started the process of joining the EU, many europeans learned about the Armenian genocide and how Turkey shamelessly denies it out of the fear of having to compensate for it, what do you think their reaction was? Yup, you guessed right.

Some reasonable Armenian intellectuals began to think about it.

Who is a better intellectual than "The Genocide and Holocaust Scholars Association"? Yeah... and you know what they say!

And another thing is that this word is used as a tool for community building/identity building. Otherwise I do not see much reason to hold Armenian diaspora togather, they would already melted away in western societies.

Don't worry about our identity building and why the diaspora sticks together.

Obviously Armenian diaspora members will not go back to Armenia to live, they will go on living in their countries, in orderto maintain diaspora community, they will always be in need to preserve their existence/identity. The word *genocide* serves very well for this purpose.

Just so you know, my 26 year old male cousin who was born in the US and hardly spoke Armenian recently moved to Armenia with his father to run their family business. He got married there last year and doesn't even think about coming back! Do a little research and see how many Armenian families move to Armenia from Iran every year. We certainly don't need the genocide to preserve our identity. If the genocide never happened, today there would be not 8 million but 14 million Armenians world wide. This is another brainwashed idea they stored in your head, Armenians need the genocide to preseve their identy. How pathetic. The reason we stick togehter is because we as a nation have been through so much and we learned that our own kind is what will come to our rescue when the rest of the world turns its back on us. So I assure you, the genocide isn't used as a tool to preserve our culture, but it has played a role in teaching us how this world works. Which reminds me of the beautiful writing by William Saroyan:

“I should like to see any power of the world destroy this race, this small tribe of unimportant people, whose wars have been all fought and lost, whose structures have crumbled, literature is unread, music is unheard, and prayers are no more answered. Go ahead, destroy Armenia. See if you can do it. Send them into the deserts without bread or water. Burn their homes and churches. Then see if they will never laugh, sing or pray again. For when two Armenians meet anywhere in the world, see if they will not create a new Armenia."

[Hovik]

I can't find the words - well said Tongue, well said...
Shame on you BUG, mercy on your soul for the things you say...

[Tongue]

Tongue just uses slogans, slogans just show a label, and nothing intellectual.

It is easy to say "liar, denialist etc" but you have to encounter our stand point, and until today all Armenian official point said, " we were peaceful we did nothing Turks just wanted to kill us". Excuse me, but we will not believe this we will not believe this.

Liar, denialist, etc. are words created specifically for people who lie and deny. You don't have to be an intellectual to call a liar a liar, and a denialist a denialist.

We will oppose the word genocide which we see as a political tool.

We both know the reasoning behind not wanting to call it a "genocide" and prefer "war"... The word is COMPENSATION.

[Tongue]

What I mean by compensation? Usually, a person found guilty of a crime is required to pay for it. If the person stole something, they return it. if the person caused a damage, they pay for it. If the person is guilty of murder, they get the death penalty, etc. Ottoman Empire was guilty of massacring 1.5 million Armenians. 1.5 million innocent lives!!!! They were also guilty of stealing their lands and homes by forcing them out. Your government, is also guilty of a dirty denial. Now this is how similar situations work with the rest of the world: Germany has been paying reparation payments to Holocaust survivors for years, a total of $35 billion so far. Your country has got to do the same, but nooo.... we both know better! You have gotten away with it for 90 years hoping we will forget, why give up now? You put economic blockade on my country so it would drop the genocide charges. You even came up with another version of the events, calling the total death of Armenians some 200 thousand mostly of diseases and turks 500 thousands killed by Armenians. You'll do anything it takes to escape the charges. And THAT IS WHY you are trying to convince us there was a "war" and not a "genocide". What war? When a government of a country turns against its own citizens of a specific ethnic and religious group, forcing them out of their homes to the desert with no food or water, leaving them there to die from dehydration and starvation there is no war! So just a quick summary of what I wrote: we want compensation, both monetary and material (land). Your country is guilty of a genocide and we won't give up until justice is served.