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**Hovik** · 07-21-2005, 06:19 AM

The life, outlook, and decision-making thought process of the denialist are so so complex...

On one hand, Turkey and the West has so much in common:
Turkey denies the Armenian Genocide while George Bush and his "Christian", Oil and Israel loving buddies chimes in to help deny the same event.

On the other hand, look at all the other members of the west who aren't narcissistic, ignorant fools, that have recognized the Armenian Genocide whether or not it was in their interests. Look at all the americans who have spoke out against the Armenian Genocide and forced their states to recognize, you could find many of the same people speaking out about the atrocities committed against American Indians, or highlighting what is taking place now in Darfur while Bush Jr is busy playing cowboys and indians somewhere in the world.

Stop trying to blame Turkeys actions on outside factors. Stop trying to take responsibility away from aggressors by citing outside irrelevent events taking place in or around the area. Nobody forced the Young Turks to formulate their plan to annihilate Armenians - nobody but themselves. Why don't you tell us your justificiation for Osama bin Ladens attack on the U.S.? What outside force stuck a gun to his head and MADE him do that? Who are you going to blame? Capitalism?

You do such a great job for us all of putting your ignorant denialist mentality on display for everyone to witness - keep it up.

**Tongue** · 07-21-2005, 08:51 AM

Originally posted by kemal

I didn't do those crimes against the Armenian citizens of the Ottomans. Neither my parents nor their parents.

True, but you ARE responsible for denying the truth... which makes you just as bad!

**Gavur** · 07-21-2005, 09:55 AM

Attacks on Christians Intensify in Turkey

Christian Post, CA
July 20 2005

Francis Helguero

In what could be growing into a trend, over the past six months,
vigilante groups have threatened Protestant church worshippers and
have attacked their places of worship.

Wednesday, Jul. 20, 2005 Posted: 5:02:13PM EST

In what could be growing into a trend in Turkey, individuals
belonging to vigilante groups in the last six months have threatened
Protestants and have attacked their places of worship.

The media has also been increasingly critical of missionary activity,
according to a recent report by Compass News. Also, some government
ministers have accused missionaries of being politically motivated to
"damaging the social peace and unity" of the nation.

In a government-approved sermon at Friday prayers in Islamic mosques
in March, the government warned that Christian missionaries were
"pursuing political agendas" to "deceive and convert" people.

The report cited several other attacks, including "sound bombs"
equivalent to 150 firecrackers placed in front of doors of a
Gaziantep church in April, and acts of vandalism at a protestant
congregation in the Black Sea city of Samsun where numberous eggs
were thrown at the building.

In April a firebomb caused $10,000 in damage to the International
Protestant Church in the capital of Ankara.

After the attack, the U.S. Embassy in Ankara issued a warning noting
an "up tick in threats and vandalism ... occurring during a period of
increased focus by the Turkish media and government on "missionary
activity in Turkey."

None of the cases ended with death, but a near miss was cited when
three young men bound an American named Wilbur Miller and his family,
threatening to kill them, before the family was spared and told to
leave the country immediately. It was not clear if investigations by
local police and the U.S. Embassy resulted charges or conctions, the
report states.

Christians are in a position where they fear to report the attacks,
according to Compass.

Pastor Ihsan Ozbek, chair of the Alliance of Protestant Churches in
Turkey told Compass that it was necessary to bring those issues to
the attention of officials, so that those who threaten could be
caught.

In Turkey, the Protestant community is tiny, estimated to be about
3,500 Christians, in 55 locations of worship and 40 known house
fellowships, according to Compass. Non Muslims in Turkey represent
just 0.2 percent of a total population of about 70 million. Other
Christian groups include members of the Greek and Armenian churches.

**Gavur** · 07-21-2005, 08:50 PM

Kemal
One of the reasons that I believe Turkey shouldn't be part of European Union is; by being the part of EU, Turkey would also be the part of their history and should take responsibility of "their" crimes in the past. The western countries are democratic welfare states today as a result of the imperialism that took place for centuries. There will be a day when the victims will turn the table. I don't like the idea of sitting on the other side when that day comes...

But dont you see you are allredy a part of it you were used by them you were forced by them to accept the atheist to rule your country and to this day you wait for their orders hand and foot why do you think they let mustafa kemal take over?dont you think TC was established for the pleasure of the west?

**Gavur** · 07-21-2005, 08:58 PM

Today the victims allready are knocking on your door long list but what you are really afraid of is the Islam world because they dont see you any different then the west therefore you have a problem identity vise you are Islam but your really not you are Turk but your really not in your genes but your god ataturk made you believe all you have to say is your a Turk and you'll be happy

**Gavur** · 07-25-2005, 11:46 AM

Outside View: The Muslim mind is on fire
By Youssef M. Ibrahim
UPI Outside View Commentator
Published July 25, 2005

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates -- The world of Islam is on fire. Indeed the Muslim mind is on fire. Above all the West is now ready to take both of them on.

The latest reliable reports confirm that on average 33 Iraqis die every day, executed by Iraqis and foreign jihadis and suicide bombers, not by U.S. or British soldiers. In fact, fewer than ever U.S. or British soldiers are dying since the invasion more than two years ago. Instead we now watch on television hundreds of innocent Iraqis lying without limbs, bleeding in the streets dead or wounded for life. If this is jihad, someone got his religious education completely upside down.

Palestine is on fire, too, with Palestinian armed groups fighting one another -- Hamas against Fatah and all against the Palestinian Authority. All have rendered Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas impotent and have diminished the world's respect and sympathy for Palestinian sufferings.

A couple of weeks ago, London was on fire as Pakistani and other Muslims with British citizenship blew up tube stations in the name of Islam. Al-Qaida in Europe or one of its franchises proclaimed proudly that the killing of 54 and wounding 700 innocent citizens was done to "avenge Islam" and Muslims.

Madrid was on fire too last year, when Muslim jihadis blew up train stations killing 160 people and wounding a few thousands.

The excuse in all the above cases was the war in Iraq, but let us not forget that in September 2001, long before Iraq, Osama bin Laden proudly announced that he had ordered the killing of some 3,000 in the United States, in the name of avenging Islam. Let us not forget the killing began a long time before the invasion of Iraq.

Indeed, jihadis have been killing for a decade in the name of Islam. They killed innocent tourists and natives in Morocco and Egypt, in Africa, in Indonesia and in Yemen, all done in the name of Islam by Muslims who say they are better than all other Muslims. They killed in India, in Thailand and are now talk of killing in Germany and Denmark and so on. There were attacks with bombs that killed scores inside Shiite and Sunni mosques, inside churches and inside synagogues in Turkey and Tunisia, with Muslim preachers saying it is OK to kill Jews and Christians -- the so called infidels.

Above all it is the Muslim mind that is on fire.

The Muslim fundamentalist who attacked the Dutch film director Theo Van Gogh in the Netherlands, stabbed him more than 23 times then cut his throat. He recently proudly proclaimed at his trial: "I did it because my religion - Islam -- dictated it and I would do it again if I were free." Which preacher told this guy this is Islam? That preacher should be in jail with him.

Do the cowardly jihadis who recruit suicide bombers really think they will force the U.S. Army and British troops out of Iraq by killing hundreds of innocent Iraqis? U.S. troops now have bases and operate in Iraq but also from Kuwait, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain and Oman?

The only accomplishment of jihadis is that now they have aroused the great "Western Tiger." There was a time when the United States and Europe welcomed Arab and Muslim immigrants, visitors and students, with open arms. London even allowed all dissidents escaping their countries to preach against those countries under the guise of political refugees.

Well, that is all over now. The time has come for Western vengeance.

Visas for Arab and Muslim young men will be impossible to get for the United States and Western Europe. Those working there, will be expelled if they are illegal and harassed even if their papers are in order.

Airlines will have the right to refuse boarding passengers if their names even resemble names on a prohibited list on all flights heading to Europe and the United States.

What is more important to remember is this: When the West did unite after World War II to beat communism, the long Cold War began without pity. They took no prisoners. They all stood together, from the United States to Norway, from Britain to Spain, from Belgium to Switzerland. And they did bring down the biggest empire. Communism collapsed.

I fear those na�ve Muslims who think that they are beating the West have now achieved their worst crime of all. The West is now going to war against not only Muslims, but, sadly Islam as a religion.

In this new cold and hot war, car bombs and suicide bombers here and there will be no match for the arsenal those Westerners are putting together - an arsenal of laws, intelligence pooling, surveillance by satellites, armies of special forces, and indeed allies inside the Arab world who are tired of having their lives disrupted by demented so-called jihadis or those bearded preachers who under the guise of preaching do little to teach and much to ignite the fire, those who know little about Islam and nothing about humanity.

--

(Youssef M. Ibrahim, a former Middle East correspondent for the New York Times and energy editor of the Wall Street Journal, is managing director of the Dubai-based Strategic Energy Investment Group. He can be contacted at [email protected])

**Gavur** · 07-26-2005, 02:36 PM

Dutch court jails Van Gogh killer for life

Dutch court jails Van Gogh killer for life
Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:51 AM BST

AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - A Dutch court sentenced the self-confessed killer of a Dutch filmmaker critical of Islam to life in jail on Tuesday for a murder which whipped up racial and religious tensions in the Netherlands.

Mohammed Bouyeri, an Amsterdam-born Muslim, was convicted of killing Theo van Gogh as he cycled to work in Amsterdam on November 2, 2004. He was found guilty of shooting and stabbing Van Gogh, slashing his throat and pinning a note to his body with a knife.

Judge Udo Willem Bentinck told the court Bouyeri had murdered Van Gogh in a gruesome manner without mercy and had shown no remorse for his actions.

"The murder of Theo van Gogh provoked a wave of revulsion and disdain in the Netherlands. Theo van Gogh was mercilessly slaughtered," the judge told a packed hearing of Amsterdam District Court.

Van Gogh, a descendent of the brother of the 19th century Dutch painter Vincent van Gogh, was known for his outspoken criticism of Islam and angered many Muslims by making a film which accused Islam of condoning violence against women.

Bouyeri, 27, confessed to the murder during his trial at Amsterdam District Court earlier this month, saying he had been motivated by his religious convictions. The Dutch-Moroccan praised Allah and carried the Koran in court during the trial.

Prosecutors said Bouyeri, who waived the right to mount a defence, was a radical Muslim dedicated to a holy war against what he regarded as the enemies of Islam and had murdered Van Gogh to spread terror in the Netherlands.

The murder sparked a wave of attacks on mosques, religious schools and churches in a country once renowned for its tolerance, and raised questions about the integration of the almost 1 million Muslims living in the Netherlands.

**Gavur** · 07-27-2005, 04:41 PM

Religious Minorities between the secular state and rising Islam

Florian Bieber

Religious Minorities between the secular state and rising Islam
Alevis, Armenians and Jews in Turkey

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Alevis

2. The non-Muslim Minorities

2.1. Armenians

2.2. Jews

3. The Islamisation of Turkey and the prospects for Religious Minorities

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The modern republic of Turkey was founded on the ruins of one of the great multinational powers, the Ottoman Empire. The lands under the rule of the Ottoman dynasty not only reached from Arabia to Hungary, but also included a multitude of ethnic and religious minorities on its territory. While Turkey inherited a large share of this diversity, it has decreased considerably since the war of liberation, following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in the early 1920s. Of the millets, the self-administrative communities of Jews, Armenians and Orthodox within the Empire, only small groups remain. Most of them live in Istanbul. Besides these Jewish and Christian minorities, Turkey is also the home to a much larger Muslim minority � the Alevis.

While it is worthwhile examining the status and the development of minorities in their own right, it is important to view them as an indicator of nation-building in Turkey. The treatment of such minorities allows the observer to draw conclusions on the concept of nationhood and the general attitude towards the �other,� encompassing minorities in general.

This paper will focus only on religious minorities, while bearing in mind the multitude of ethnic divisions within Turkey, the Kurds just being the largest and most prominent group. This paper will also not analyse the legal framework of the minority�s position, but rather their real living conditions in Turkey today. Furthermore there is no space to make a mention of all religious minorities. Here the topic shall be limited just to the three most prominent and largest religious minorities: the Alevis, the Armenian community and the Jews [1]. Their development and treatment is representative and applies mostly to the other religious minorities as well.

The latter two communities can serve as an example of the relationship between Turkey�s relations with its neighbours and the treatment of its minorities. The analysis of the Alevis shall demonstrate the situation of a large, but marginalised, minority in Turkey. All of them are paradoxically threatened by the secular state and the rise of Political Islam at the same time.[2]

This seeming contradiction will be examined throughout the paper.

At first it might seem surprising that the situation of religious minorities is more precarious in a secular republic than in the previous Islamic Ottoman state. This development is nevertheless obvious when bearing in mind two factors. First of all the aggressively secular nature of the state did not only effect the dominant Sunni establishment, but also all other religious groups.

The Ottoman state generally recognised the other main religions based on the scripture, that is Christianity and Judaism, despite not treating them as equals. The Turkish state deprived these groups of their prime identifying characteristic - religion. Since religious minorities are in a weaker position than the majority, the closure of schools and churches/synagogues had greater effects on their identity than the same actions taken against Sunni Islam. Consequently religious minorities had to suffer harsher consequences from the secularisation than Sunni Islam.

Secondly, one has to consider the conception of Turkish nationhood. While leading politicians continuously proclaim that the Turkish nation extends to all its citizens, the reality and underlying ideology of Turkish nationalism takes different perspective. The Turkish nation defines itself as a nation of Turks, speaking Turkish as language and having common ancestry in the Urals or Central Asia, depending on the historical school. This concept, not unlike that of most other nations, obviously excludes most religious minorities, due to their largely different ethnic background or/and language. Furthermore the predominance of Sunni Islam has lead to a de-facto identification of Sunni Islam as a defining characteristic of Turkish national identity. Thus religious minorities are not included in the most common perception of the Turkish nation.[3] Besides one has to bear the role of history and the perception of history in mind when tracing the definition of nationhood. In the case of Turkey this includes many conflicts between the majority and religious minorities, in particular the Armenian community.

Consequently, even if the other factors would lend themselves to include these groups into the larger Turkish nation, the role of history presents itself as a barrier.[4]

1. Alevis

The Alevis are by far the largest religious minority in Turkey. They comprise at least 10 % of the Turkish population. Realistic guesses assume a proportion of the population ranging between a Quarter and a Fifth. The reason for the lack of accurate figures is two-fold. First of all, the official census of Turkey is not very reliable. Secondly, the Alevi have frequently been victims of persecution. Thus, there has been and still is a hesitancy to openly report the belief.

Alevism is an offspring of Shi�ism, but includes some other traditions as well. Alevis are not participating in the Ramadan or Hajj, neither do they adhere to the Sharia. It thus defies some of the basic pillars of mainstream Islam. Instead some moral norms are set independently from the Qur�an. There are different theories explaining the non-Muslim influences. One of them claims that Zoroastrianism has shaped this religion, as well as other pre-Islamic regional religions. Generally Alevism is viewed with suspicion from Sunni Islam and is not recognised as a legitimate off-spring of Islam.[5]

The religious ceremonies (Cem) are conducted by a hereditary class of holy men (Dede), poems are recited (Nefes) and sometimes dances (Semah) are performed by men and women.

Generally women play a greater role within the religion and enjoy more rights than in mainstream Sunni Islam.[6] Just like Sunni Islam, the Alevis also have their religious order, the Bektashi.

In Turkey one can distinguish four different Alevi communities. The two smaller ones are made up of Azeri Turks, whose interpretation of Alevism is very close to Shia Islam practised in Iran, and Arabic speaking Alevis. The Arabic Alevis live in the province of Hatay, bordering on the Mediterranean and Syria, around the city of Alexandretta. They share their interpretation of Alevism with the Alawites in Syria, where they are in leading positions.[7]

Both groups are small and unconnected to Turkish mainstream. The two biggest Alevi groups are the Turkish-speaking Alevis, who live mostly in central Anatolia, but also along the coast with Aegean and Mediterranean, in the European part of Turkey and increasingly in the big cities. The other major group are Kurdish Alevis, living predominantly in the Northwest of the Kurdish populated areas territories, with the centre of Dersim (province of Tunceli) in the centre and Northeast of the country.

During the Kurdish uprising in 1925 Alevi Kurds fought against the rebellion due to its Sunni overtones. In 1920 and 1937-38 there were rebellions by Kurdish Alevis. Generally the Alevi Kurds were supportive of the Kemalist Republic, since it seemed to protect their interests best.

Most Alevis lived in remote villages and only the more open climate towards them in the post World War 2 period encouraged their migration to bigger towns. This movement of Alevis caused tensions with the local Sunni population, which had never lived together with Alevis before. This and general problems of city immigration lead to predominantly Alevi communities in the big cities, in particular Istanbul.

The Alevis were closely associated with the political left in the 1970s. The Communists depicted their rebellions as proto-communist revolutions and saw them as their natural allies against the religious-nationalist right, who denied all rights to Alevis. At the same time many Alevis joined left-wing groups, especially the Turkish Workers Party. This lead to violence and pogroms against the Alevis by the national and religious right. Often the local police, infiltrated by the right, remained passive and even helped these persecutions. During one of the worst attacks in the late 1970s over 100 Alevis got killed by right-wing militants in Corum and Maras. While the Alevis mostly supported the state unconditionally prior to these persecutions, they differentiated between the state as such and institutions, which had been infiltrated by the political right.[8]

The military�s and �zal�s attempt after the intervention of the army in 1980 to include Sunni religion into mainstream politics increased Alevi dissatisfaction with the government. The Directorate on Religious Affairs decided now on the appointment of imams, the constructions of mosques and religious instruction in schools, also in Alevi communities. As a result the official interpretations does not take into account the specific issues and demands of the Alevi community. This does not lead to a suppression of Alevi belief. It rather meant that Alevi Islam receives no financial and institutional support from state, while Sunni Islam was and still is officially sanctioned by the state.[9] A committee of leading Alevis described this problem in the following way to president Demirel: �We are disturbed about...the human drama stemming from constantly postponing the settlement of Alevi-Bektashi problems; the unease we feel because our taxes are being used for the institutionalisation of religious and canonical structures.�[10]

The increasing role of Sunni Islam within the Turkish state has lead the Alevis to refocus on their religion. At the same time the left in Turkey lost many followers after its heyday in the Seventies and now frequently only Alevis were left as supporters and concentrated more on their interests, rather than those of the left as such. Other Alevis reacted against the long-standing influence of the left and therefore rediscovered religion as a traditional way of articulating their interests.

The liberalisation of Turkish society in the late eighties further encouraged publications and public advocacy of Alevis, Alevi religious traditions and the work of the Bektashi order, banned from public since 1925, could be performed again. Nevertheless publications in Turkey are still not allowed to carry an Alevi name and the religion is still not officially recognised.

The new authors of Alevi literature are laymen, breaking the tradition of the hereditary priests.

This development strengthened the identity of the Alevis and increased the sense of community. Heated debates among Alevi intellectuals were lead on whether Alevism is a part of Islam or to be considered separate.[11]

The state increasingly supported Alevis, partly in order to split the Kurdish movement.

Mobilising Alevi Kurds was supposed to encourage internal divisions of the Kurds and support traditional allies of the Kemalist republic. As a result festivals and other events of the Alevis became frequently support by the state and were visited by leading politicians. The Haci Bektashi Veli festival 1995 in an Alevi village and centre of the Bektashi order for example was visited by president Demirel, the prime minister and the minister of culture.[12]

At the time the mid-nineties have been a time of renewed persecution of Alevis, not by the state, but by the increasingly influential religious right. In 1993 Intellectuals and artists, some of which were Alevis, gathered in the city of Sivas to celebrate the Alevi rebel saint and poet Pir Sultan Abdal, who was executed in the city. The province around the city has a substantial Turkish and Kurdish Alevi population. One leading Turkish intellectual, Aziz Nesin, who had announced his intention to publish a Turkish translation of The Satanic Verses, was also present, although not an Alevi himself. Islamists demonstrated against the meeting and were encouraged by the mayor, who was member of the Refah party. The crowd gathered around the hotel where the meeting took place and set it on fire with the intention of killing Nesin.

Although the central authorities supposedly tried command the police to stop this, they remained passive. As a result 37 people died, including many important Alevi intellectuals and journalists. One of the survivors was Nasin, the prime target of the attacks.[13] In March 1995 the relations between the police force and Alevis deteriorated further. On 12 March �unknown� gunmen drove through the predominantly Kurdish Alevi Gazi neighbourhood in Istanbul and shoot at teahouses, killing one and wounding many more. There are several theories as of who committed this act. One assumes that radical Islamists took offence at the opening of tea houses during Ramadan, combined with their general disapproval of the Alevis, committed the shootings. A different explanation (favoured by the state) puts the blame on the PKK. Here the justification would be the lack of support among the Alevi Kurds for the Kurdish Workers Party.

After the police was failing to act swiftly, young Alevis began demonstrations. Clashes with the Police lead to riots. After the police shoot one demonstrator the protests began spread to other cities and within Istanbul itself. While young radical Alevis targeting the state in their increasingly violent protest, the older Alevis tried to calm the situation. The criticisms which arose during the demonstration widened substantially in their scope. The protestors voiced their dissatisfaction with their poor living standards and furthermore opposed the continuing exclusion of Alevis from Public Life. As the situations escalated, the police started shooting into the crowd, killing at least 15. The person responsible for the police action, Necdet Menzir, had to step down from his position in Istanbul in Summer 1995, only to become a member of parliament for the True Path Party soon afterwards.[14]

These events have reduced trust placed by the Alevi population in the police force. Also noticing that the prime responsible for these action were not punished has decreased their reliance on the state. Even if they still support the state and the Kemalist vision of Turkey, it has become obvious that some elements of the state show great hostility towards Alevis. The main threat for this religious minorities originated from the religious right, the Refah. At the same time also more moderate parties, such as the True Path party, carried some responsibility for the deteriorating relations between the Alevis and security forces. The threat of an all out rule of the Welfare party will probably insure continuing support of the Alevis, at least the Turkish Alevis for the state. Alevi Kurds on the other hand have the option of joining the PKK.

This has happened partly in the countryside. Since many Kurdish Alevis live in Gecekondus in Istanbul or the other big cities, their position towards the PKK is likely to remain distanced.

The state has tried to repair the relations with the Alevis, realising their importance as a religious group and at the same time recognising their role in support of the secular state.

President Demirel underlined this at a speech during the annual Haci Bektashi Veli festival:

�Clear your hearts of emotions like hostility and hate and replace them with tolerance and love instead. Turkey belongs to everyone living in this land.�[15] Whether this approach of the state will suffice to insure Alevi support remains to be seen. For the moment the Alevis are still caught between the secular state, which recruits some of its most loyal supporters from the Alevis, but offers them very little protection and support and the Islamist perspective, which is mostly hostile towards this Muslim minority: �The binary logic which view militant, radical Islam as an undifferentiated bloc in opposition to Republican secularism produces a political silence on the difference of Alevi belief within Islamic traditions, and their politics of difference in repudiating violence.�[16] This logic actually tacitly assumes a dichotomy on most issues between Kemalists and Islamist. When it comes to the Alevis and other religious minorities as we shall see, there is a consensus between large segments of the secular elite and the Religious Right on their (mis-)treatment.

**Gavur** · 07-27-2005, 04:42 PM

2. Non-Muslim Minorities

2. Non-Muslim Minorities

Less than 2 % of the Turkish population are not Muslims. Most of these minorities used to be a lot larger during Ottoman times and in the early years of the Turkish republic. Most non-Muslim minorities are closely identified with one state, i.e. Greek-Orthodox with Greece, the Jews with Israel (or the Jewish lobby in the United States). Thus, there is a tendency to project problems with the respective country onto the minority. Mostly minorities have suffered from this identification. Only the Jews have occasionally profited from being associated with Israel and the powerful Jewish lobby in the United States. All these political identifications tend to play a greater role than the religious differences. These minorities also tend to be more visible, than their size might suggest.

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