Islam: The Religion of Peace?

[1.5 million]

Sythian - I see Islam as no worse than Christianity (of the Middle Ages).

As I said - I do see many of these other events as genocides - and all were certainly great tragedies for those affected - regardless. Some even meet the criteria of a government destroying some of its own population (democide) - such as with the Armenian Genocide - others were "incedental" genocides as a result of colonization and war. All of the guilty parties should be made to own up to their atrocities IMO. I hope that there are appropriate forums for such to occur and I hope that the history books in the nations involved and the education systems and public positions of the governments involved (responsible) teach the truth and do not hide behind excuses or attempt to blame the victims or such. The theme of this forum is recognition of the Armenian Genocide BTW.

[1.5 million]

TurQ - you obviously have no understanding of Ackam's perspective and insights in this matter. Neither do you much really understand the history of the crimes commited against the Armenians (beginning well prior to this time - and why) and you obviously lack of perspective/understanding of the historical forces that led to a xenophobic and racist revolution in the Ottoman EMpire where a great many of the Turks/Muslims enthusiastcally went along with the scapegoating (and eventual destructive bloodbath) of Armenians and Greeks. I understand BTW - how these events are related to the collapse of the ottoman Empire - including the push back by former subject peoples at the extremities that resulted in massacres and expulsions of Muslims - tit for tat as it were (as they learned massacre amd ethnic cleansing from their Ottoman Turk masters) - as well as the expansion of Imperialist Russia at the expense of Khanates at its perifery and the supression of Khazars and Circassians and such (who were active in warring against the Czar...and by some denialist definition the obviates any claim of genocide...I don't fully buy this excuse - but it has been used in argument against the Armenian genocide numerous times...) - anyway - yes a great many Muslim civilians suffered - were driven from lands they inhabited - were killed and such...terrible and barbaric - agreed - and I am not any kind of apologist for Russian Imperialism either - quite the opposite...and I am happy to entertain further discussions of these events...however when the other parties to the discussion (you & Sythian) demand my sympathy/recognition etc - and also claim that what occured to the Armenians can be written off as some sort of tit for tat - and when you constantly minimize and ignore the true sytematic genocideal campaign against the Armenians - that truly has no equal excepting perhaps the Holocaust of WWII - well - you won't find me very sympathetic with your position - you must really have quite a twisted view of things to think so.

[phantom]

TurQ, of course I appreciate and enjoy keeping the dialog open with you. But, ultimately, I agree with 1.5 that you often come off as an apologist for what happened even while admitting that the CUP committed Genocide. Surely, I understand that there were instances of Armenian aggression against Turks, but I don't know of any instances of it that were not in retaliation for the killings the Armenians had suffered first. As for the sufferings of the Circassians, I sympathize, I truly do, even without knowing exactly what happened. But I don't understand how you can implicate the Armenians on this and even hint that we had something to do with it?

[Gavur]

Any religion that demands submission and forces it with the sword in my opinion is not a true religion.
I think I showed in this thread just by the current events Islam qualifys if a case needs to be made for any other religion it must be done in a different thread.I made this thread to show nothing is changed in Islam as it relates to Armenian Genocide just like I feel the same about Turks.Nothing is changed as they say in Turkish "Ayni tas ,ayni hamam"
"Same bucket,same bathouse"

[TurQ]

Gavur
A religon can not be understood by biased sources especially biased news. A religon can only be understood from its original resources.

Islam has never been spread by sword, it wasnt the case in past it wasnt the case today and ot wont be tomorrow.
As you know there is a great prejuidice in the news about islam, but still Islam is the fastes growing religon in west. Even this shows that despite such misinformation there is a great deal of attraction by Islam. You have to have a explanation for this. I know in 1996 right after the bloody war in Balkans, there were official 262 conversions in Serbia(mostly Belgrade) and most of the converts are either teachers, engineers or doctors. is this also by sword?

Look at Africa and South America and tell us how Christianity was spread. You might not like Islam but these are plain facts and you have to have an explanation other than sword.
I can give you details of how Isla was spread so fast but first you have to give up "ayni tas ayni hamam thinking and approach for Muslims.

or I suffice you to watch the PBS documentary "Islam: Empire of Faith"

http://www.pbs.org/empires/islam/

Gavur we have talked about the moon thing and how it was a falsification about islam, there are other things that you might know and percieve differently, but learn Islam from its original resources than make your own judgement not the judgement of other people.

Any religion that demands submission and forces it with the sword in my opinion is not a true religion.
I think I showed in this thread just by the current events Islam qualifys if a case needs to be made for any other religion it must be done in a different thread.I made this thread to show nothing is changed in Islam as it relates to Armenian Genocide just like I feel the same about Turks.Nothing is changed as they say in Turkish "Ayni tas ,ayni hamam"
"Same bucket,same bathouse"

[Gavur]

Current news reports are not opinions there are attacks happening as we speak in the name of Islam.And in your opinion maybe we Armenians should be thankfull to Islam for saving the lives of the people who converted so they will be spared of being massacred?
Acts (not words) will suffice developing my opinion thank you very much.

[TurQ]

Again some ambigous comments.
As I said earlier a religon can only be understood from its original resources, not news coverages am I wrong? The news coverages are not about Islam, and related with those 1% of the Muslims not the remaining 99%.
Again Islam has never ever been spread by sword, this is the biggest falsification made by jealous evalengalists. They need to explain why there is so much interest in Islam today among westners and also have to explan why their communities are shrinking(especially in Europe Atheism is a popular trend). Before talking about Islam I think sincere and devout Christians should first deal with this real problem not Islam.

Again I refer you to the PBS documentary.

http://www.pbs.org/empires/islam/

yes you are right actions speak louder than words, so I urge you to know devout muslim in person instead of news coverages
and make your own judgement.
Yes Indeed you are right as Ottomans would say "Ayinesi ishtir kishinin lafa bakilmaz!"

Current news reports are not opinions there are attacks happening as we speak in the name of Islam.And in your opinion maybe we Armenians should be thankfull to Islam for saving the lives of the people who converted so they will be spared of being massacred?
Acts (not words) will suffice developing my opinion thank you very much.

[Gavur]

Report: Erdogan's secret meeting with Islamic movement sponsor

The New Anatolian / Ankara



Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan secretly met with one of the world's leading sponsors of the Islamic movement in Sudan last week, Turkish daily Milliyet reported on Friday.

According to the article, Erdogan cancelled his scheduled meeting with Sudanese President Omer El Besir, and instead met with Sudanese businessmen Dr. Fatih El Hassanein, known for being one of the leading sponsors of worldwide Islamic movements.

The newspaper said El Hassanein had met Erdogan in the '90s when the AK Party leader was head of the Istanbul section of the Islamist Welfare Party (RP).

Neither Foreign Ministry officials nor Erdogan's advisors participated in the meeting between the Turkish prime minister and El Hassanein.

[ScythianVizier]

So far the only thing you've done is lie about the Armenian Genocide. You've done nothing to educate us about the Circassian Turk experience, nor to help us understand why it can be considered a Genocide like that of the, e.g., Armenian, Jewish, Rwandan, and Cambodian experiences. All you've done is whine generically about various Genocides here and there while maintaining that the Armenian experience is either no Genocide or at best, no big deal compared to the experiences of others. Your credibility and ability to assess this issue is consequently worthless. And your attempts to minimize the suffering of the Armenians is extremely transparent.

What did I say to you? I did point out that more Ottoman Muslims died between 1780s and 1920s compared to the Christian Ottomans died within the borders of the Ottoman Empire, is it a lie?

The Circassian Turks (Karachay-Balkars) were the inhabitants of Caucasus long before the Russians. They were a part of the Turkic Bolgar Federations. They had their alphabets, and their states, trade and everything. Why do the surviving ones reside in Turkey now? Why their population is not even as many as the Armenians now? Do you want to read a bit? Here is what happened to the Ciricassian Turks of Caucaus:

The Circassian Genocide

A professor of the university of Munich (München), Karl Friedrich Neumann (not to be confused with the later Naumann), wrote in 1839 a book titled "Russland und die Tscherkessen" (published in the collection "Reisen und Länderbeschreibungen", vol. 19, in 1840). He describes, how Russia settled Christians to the parts of Armenia gained from Persia in 1828 - actually, Neumann had written about the issue already in 1834. (p. 68-69) Neumann considered this a very sound policy and predicted, that all Caucasus would become under firm Russian rule within the next decades. (p. 125) European powers would not intervene, because it was the destiny of all Europe to rule over the lands of Turks, Persians, and Hindus. (p. 129-130)

Neumann was no racist, but he certainly advocated colonialism and was a Russophile in relation to the southern lands. He had a Darwinist approach many years before Charles Darwin or Herbert Spencer presented their ideas. This appears to have been more typical to 19th century German thought than any anti-Armenian sentiments. Neumann makes it clear in his very first words of the preface: "The European humanity is selected by divinity as ruler of the earth."

Although Neumann respected the bravery of Circassians, he anticipated their destruction by Russia, because in a modern world, there would be no place for chivalrous "uncivilized" people. Neumann estimated the total number of Circassians, including the Kabardians and Abkhaz, at 1.5 million persons, or 300.000 families. (p. 67) Both the Russian figure of 300.000 persons, and the Circassian figure of four millions, were exaggerated.

Neumann divided the Circassians into ten tribes: Notketch, Schapsuch, Abatsech, Pseduch, Ubich, Hatiokech, Kemkuich, Abasech, Lenelnich, Kubertech (in German transliteration). They formed a loose confederation very much like old Switzerland, with democratic majority votes deciding the affairs of villages. Their princes had no privileges, and were regarded only as military commanders. Women were more free than anywhere in the Orient. There was no written law, and death penalties were unknown. Many Circassians were Muslims, but there were also Christians and pagans, all completely tolerated.

Russian prisoners-of-war were used as slaves, but if they were of Polish origin, they were regarded as guests. Therefore, Poles recruited in the Russian army, deserted en masse at every opportunity, and even Russians often declared themselves to be Poles. (p. 123) Slavery as such included no shame. Circassians used to sell their own family members as slaves to Turkey and Persia, and many went to slavery voluntarily, returning later on back home as rich and free men. (p. 124) This system could be compared to the Gastarbeiter emigration from Turkey since the 1960s. We should also remember, that in those times, slavery or serfdom existed in Romania and Russia as well.

The Circassians had been fighting against Russia already for forty years when appealing to the courts of Europe in a "Declaration of Independence": "But now we hear to our deepest humiliation, that our land counts as a part of the Russian empire on all maps published in Europe... that Russia, finally, declares in the West, that Circassians are their slaves, horrible bandits..." (p. 140-141)

The fight continued for two more full decades, until a national Circassian government was set up in Sochi. In 1862, Russia began the final invasion, annihilation and expulsion, as predicted by Neumann well in advance.

According to Kemal H. Karpat, "Ottoman population 1830-1914" (Madison 1985), "Beginning in 1862, and continuing through the first decade of the twentieth century, more than 3 million people of Caucasian stock, often referred collectively as Cerkes (Circassians), were forced by the Russians to leave their ancestral lands..." (p. 27)

Salaheddin Bey mentioned, in 1867, a total of 1.008.000 refugees from the Caucasus and Crimea, of whom 595.000 were initially settled in the Balkans. (p. 27) Half a million followed by 1879, and another half a million until 1914. (p. 69) Most of them were Circassians, although there were Crimean Tatars, Chechens, and other Muslim people among them. Hundreds of thousands Circassians perished on their way.

Neumann’s estimate of 1.5 million Circassians corresponds to 1/30 ethnic Russians, or 1/3 Czechs, or 3/4 Slovaks. (p. 66) According to Neumann, there were over two million Armenians in the world. (p. 69) Now, according to the Soviet census of 1989, the number of Russians has increased to 145 millions, whereof 1/30 would be almost five millions. There are 10 million Czechs and 5 million Slovaks, which would lead us to assume that there should be over 3 million Circassians. Armenia alone has a population of over 3 million Armenians, despite of the past ordeals; 2 million Armenians live elsewhere. The number of Czechs, Slovaks, and Armenians has more than doubled in 150 years, while the number of Russians has tripled; but where are the missing millions of Circassians?

"The Encyclopaedia Britannica", 11th edition (Cambridge 1911), divided the Armenian population equally between Russia and Turkey (little over a million in each empire), and numbered 216.950 Circassians (including Abkhaz etc.) in Russia. Again we must conclude, that about 1.5 million Circassians had been massacred or deported. This disaster exceeded both absolutely and proportionally whatever fell upon Armenians in 1915. Was it intentional? Yes. Was it ideological? Yes. The conquest and Christian colonization of the Middle East was expected not only by Germans, but by most Europeans during the 19th century, and the expulsion of Muslims from Europe was considered a historical necessity. Russia had practicized massacres and mass deportations in the Crimea and Caucasus, and "ethnically cleansed" Circassia specially in 1862-1864. During that period, Panslavists like Mikhail Katkov provided the Russian public with nationalistic excuses for what had started as imperial ambition ("Third Rome") and strategic interests ("Access to sea").

A vicious cycle was created and increased the stakes at both frontiers: the Caucasus, and the Balkans. Circassian refugees settled in the Balkans were provoked to commit the "Bulgarian atrocities", that inspired some of the Armenian revolutionaries. After the Balkan Wars, Muslim refugees were roaming in Anatolia, thus spreading terror, and hostility. This was exploited by Russia, at the cost of many innocent Armenians. The massacres of 1915 were a tip of the iceberg - the part best visible for Europeans, who had been actively seeking and expecting horror news to justify anti-Muslim prejudice, and to prevent interventions on behalf of Turkey, as had happened in the Crimean War of the 1850s.

Was it a genocide? That depends on the definition. Rather than of separate, selectively researched genocides, we should speak of a general genocidal tendency that affected many - both Muslim and Christian - people on a wide scene between 1856 and 1956, continuing in post-Soviet Russia until today.

http://www.unpo.org/news_detail.php?arg=18&par=1639

Did Russia recognize this one? What about France and Belgium? Could you tell?

Of course, I believe that I have ever right to accept or deny anything related to political recognition of a genocide as long as our great ordeal is denied by the parties who recognize the genocides occurred as a result of their own imperialistic policies. Does it bother you that I bring the "Western Hypocracies" for tackling the genocides that they were involved for centuries? Does it bother that I dont credit France, Belgium or Russia as some benchmark of humanity?

In fact, I have no problem in terms of recognizing some mass killings as a genocide. Hence, I believe that all the wars are the major tools of genocide. One entity cant not say that it was not one's intention to kill specific group of people when that entity nuces the cities of those, destroy their infrastructure and their homes together with their rights to exist.

[1.5 million]

There is much more to this story then this single account BTW. Suffice to say that Circassians suffered horribly. As to where the "missing" Cicassians are now...well look around you Sythian...I for one continue to meet more and more Turks who claim to be Circassian or part and such - now that the taboos in Turkey are lifting for folks to identify themselves as such I think we will easily find these numbers among the 80 or so million "Turks" in Turkey today...