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Armenian time, Turkish time

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  • Armenian time, Turkish time

    Armenian time, Turkish time

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Sunday, September 18, 2005

    Armenians and Turks live in different eras. If we want to build a true dialogue between the two sides, it is this time-related fact that we first need to recognize. What happens when an Armenian girl speaks about her past with average Turkish women?

    ELİF ŞAFAK
    Armenians and Turks live in different eras. If we want to build a true dialogue between the two sides it is this time-related fact that we first need to recognize. What happens when an Armenian girl speaks about her past with average Turkish women? Below is an excerpt from an upcoming novel.

    “Ask her what their family name is?” Grandmother Gülsüm asked Asya.

    “Tchakhmakhchian,” Armanoush replied when the question was translated, adding, “My full name is Armanoush Tchakhmakhchian.”

    Auntie Zeliha's face brightened as she exclaimed in recognition: “I've always found that interesting. The Turks add the suffix 'ci' to every possible word to describe professions. Look at our family name; it is Kazan-cı [1]. We are the cauldron makers. Now I see Armenians do the same thing. Çakmak [2]… Çakmakçı, Çakmakçı-yan.”

    “That's interesting. Look, I have an address,” said Armanoush, who fished out a piece of paper from her pocket, adding: “My grandmother Shushan was born in this house. If you could help me with the directions, I'd like to go and visit it sometime.”

    “So you came here to see your grandmother's house. Why did she leave?” enquired Aunt Zeliha.

    Armanoush was both eager to be asked this question and reluctant to answer. Was it too early to let them know? How much of her story should she reveal? If not now, then when? Why should she have to wait anyway? In a listless, almost sapped voice she said, “They were forced to leave.”

    As soon as she said this her weariness disappeared and she lifted her chin up as she continued: “It's a long story. I won't take your time with all the details. When her father died my grandmother Shushan was three years old. There were four siblings, she being the youngest and the only girl. The family had been left without its patriarch. My great grandmother was a widow now. Finding it difficult to stay in Istanbul with the children she sought refuge in her father's house in Sivas. But as soon as they arrived the deportations began. The entire family was ordered to leave their house and belongings behind and march with thousands of others to an unknown destination. They marched and they marched. My great grandmother died on the way and before long the elderly died as well. Having no parents to look after them the younger children lost each other amidst the confusion and chaos. But after months apart, the brothers were miraculously united in Lebanon with the help of a Catholic missionary. The only missing sibling among those still alive was my grandmother Shushan. Nobody had heard of the fate of the infant. Nobody knew that she had been taken back to Istanbul to be placed in an orphanage.”

    Asya looked at Armanoush somewhat puzzled. Never before had she met someone so young with a memory so old.

    Auntie Feride was the first to raise doubts and said: “But I don't understand. What happened to them? They died because they walked?”

    “They were denied water and food and rest. They were made to march a long distance on foot. Women, some of them pregnant, and children, the elderly, the sick and the debilitated...” Armanoush's voice now trailed off.

    “Who did this atrocity?” Auntie Cevriye asked as if addressing a classroom of ill-disciplined students.

    “The Turks did it,” Armanoush replied without paying any attention to the implications.

    “What a shame, what a sin. Are they not human?” Auntie Feride volleyed.

    “Of course not, some people are monsters!” Auntie Cevriye declared without comprehending that the repercussions could be far more complex than she would like to handle. In twenty years in her career as a Turkish history teacher she was so accustomed to drawing an impermeable boundary between the past and the present, distinguishing the Ottoman Empire from the modern Turkish Republic, that she had actually heard the whole story as grim news from a “distant country.” The new state in Turkey had been established in 1923 and that was as far as the genesis of this regime could extend. Whatever might or might not have happened preceding this date was the issue of another era, and another people.

    Armanoush looked at them one by one, puzzled. She was relieved to see that the family had not taken the story as badly as she had feared, but then she couldn't be sure that they had really taken it in at all. True, they neither refused to believe her nor did they retort with any counter argument. If anything, they listened attentively and they all seemed sorry. But was that the limit of their commiseration? And what exactly had she expected? Armanoush felt slightly disconcerted as she wondered whether it would be different if she were talking to a group of intellectuals.

    Slowly it dawned on Armanoush that perhaps she was waiting for an admission of guilt, if not an apology. And yet that apology had not come, not because they had not felt for her, for it looked like they had, but because they had seen no connection between themselves and the perpetrators of the crimes. She, as an Armenian, embodied the spirit of her people from generations before whereas the average Turk had no such notion of continuity with his or her ancestors. The Armenians and the Turks lived in different eras. For the Armenians, time was a cycle in which the past incarnated itself in the present and the present begat the future, whereas for Turks time was a multi-hyphenated line where the past ended at some precise point and the present started anew with a fresh page with nothing but a huge rupture in between.

    [1] Kazan: cauldron

    Kazanci: cauldronmaker

    [2] Çakmak: lighter

    Çakmakçı: lightermaker

  • #2
    Armenians don't want Turkish people living in Turkey to apologize to them. That's a fallacy. They want recognition. They want them to recognize the 1915 events as a genocide, and not as mass killings, or murder, or any false story fed to them by their government blaming the Armenians for it. To sum it up, Armenians want Turkish people to know and recognize the truth. They don't care about their apology.

    Comment


    • #3
      The piece above is posted by Gavur.

      I just wanted to open a new thread since I think it deserves more attention so that people can discuss and share their ideas about it.

      I have read posts on this forum who are demanding apology, land, money, etc. from Turkish government, or Turks, or Turkish state...

      The piece that I posted above represents the perception of the majority of the Turkish people. Particularly those that are living in the rural parts. They have no sense of the events of 1915. The rest only knows the one half of the story apparently the one half that you are not aware of...

      Do you blame them? They are responsible from what? Apparently many Armenians still live in 1915. Majority of the Turks are not feeling responsiblity for those events for obvious reasons. I mean, obvious reasons for reasonable minds. It's not only the events in 1915, majority of the Turks have no memories of their forceful deportations from the Caucasus and Balkans. By the way Balkans is where the Ottomans flourished. Ottoman was a Balkan country for a century (plus) before they captured Istanbul. Any way, what I mean is, this loss of memory is not a selective process. This loss of memory is actually healthy. I know that people can't live without history, but they can't live in history as well, or they shouldn't live.

      People are responsible from theirselves. Not from what other people did at other times. People must be proud of what they do. Not what other people did at other times.

      I have a question particularly for the contributors of the forum that resides in North America. Suppose one day a Native American knocks your door and says that his/her ancestor used to live in the land where your home is in, and was butchered by the white man and now wants his land back. What would be your reaction?

      Don't expect some other reaction from the Turks.

      Turkish people can be at most sorry about what the "bad Turkish people" did in 1915-17 (or before). But don't forget that they will demand from you to be sorry from what the "bad Armenian people" did when they return with the French and Russians. Are you ready for it?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Tongue
        They don't care about their apology.

        Why do they care about the Turks recognition then?

        Comment


        • #5
          Turk Politician Again Charged In Switzerland For Denying Armenian Genocide

          (AP) - Swiss authorities brought a third charge against a Turkish politician for allegedly breaking Switzerland's racial discrimination laws by denying that the killings of Armenians around the time of World War I was a genocide, police said Monday.

          Dogu Perincek, the leader of the Turkey's Workers' Party, made the remarks Sunday in a speech in central Switzerland, Bern cantonal (state) police said in a statement. He already had been charged twice by Swiss authorities for two previous, similar incidents.

          Denying that the Holocaust or other cases of genocide took place is regarded as racial discrimination under Swiss law, and can be punished by up to three years in prison and an unspecified fine.

          "Based on the fact that, in the course of his address, Dogu Perincek denied the Armenian genocide and expressed prejudices against the western world, the Bern cantonal police has put down a complaint because of suspicion of racial discrimination," the police statement said.

          Perincek will be questioned Tuesday by police in neighboring Vaud canton, where he already is under investigation for similar remarks made in May, Bern police spokeswoman Anastasia Falkner said. Swiss authorities launched a second investigation into Perincek in July for making similar remarks in northern Switzerland, and Perincek was briefly detained after that speech. Turkey called the Swiss ambassador to the Foreign Ministry to protest Perincek's detention and investigation.

          Similar disputes have erupted in the past between Turkey and Switzerland. In June, a Turkish Cabinet minister postponed a visit to Switzerland to protest an investigation of a Turkish historian who denied in a separate speech that the killings were genocide. In July, Turkey canceled a proposed visit by Swiss Economics Minister Joseph Deiss because of "schedule clashes," Deiss's spokesman said.

          In a separate development, Turkey's Foreign Ministry said Friday it "greeted with sadness" the passage by a U.S. congressional committee of two resolutions that denounce the deaths of Armenians early last century as genocide, and hoped U.S. legislators would not allow the resolutions out of committee.

          "In the period ahead, we believe that members of the U.S. Congress will act with a responsibility befitting the Turkish-American relationship, and strongly hope that the resolutions will stay in the committee and not be carried to the floor," the statement said.
          "All truth passes through three stages:
          First, it is ridiculed;
          Second, it is violently opposed; and
          Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

          Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

          Comment


          • #6
            Why do they care about the Turks recognition then?


            Its about honor if you know the meaning!
            Armenians want Turkish people to know and recognize the truth
            "All truth passes through three stages:
            First, it is ridiculed;
            Second, it is violently opposed; and
            Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

            Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

            Comment


            • #7
              People are responsible from theirselves. Not from what other people did at other times. People must be proud of what they do. Not what other people did at other times.
              Listen, you people are living on stolen land. You have destroyed most traces of the people whose land you live on. You are perfectly content to continue to do so? Then you become part of the crime. Don't give me this nonsense that you're ignorant of the past.

              I have a question particularly for the contributors of the forum that resides in North America. Suppose one day a Native American knocks your door and says that his/her ancestor used to live in the land where your home is in, and was butchered by the white man and now wants his land back. What would be your reaction?
              I am all for Native American land rights. I believe the land I live on is Seminole Indian land. I think this country might be better off if they ran things. So yes, they would be free to either collect the taxes on the land my home is on instead of the ZOG government or take the land for themselves.

              Don't expect some other reaction from the Turks.
              Fine, so vacate the premesis immediately. Don't forget to pay ninety years of back rent, damages and cleaning and disinfecting charges.

              Turkish people can be at most sorry about what the "bad Turkish people" did in 1915-17 (or before). But don't forget that they will demand from you to be sorry from what the "bad Armenian people" did when they return with the French and Russians. Are you ready for it?
              You people are stupid and there is no country that accepts your stupid accusations against Armenians.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by kemal
                Why do they care about the Turks recognition then?
                I dont care about recognition from turks. But I do care about recognition from everyone else, each and every country and people except for turks. Just so they know exactly what you people are.

                That isn't hard to do because you like pretending that Armenians are the only people who know what you are. But you did crap to a LOT of people, not just Armenians.

                Continue to deny. You are not capable of anything else. Most criminals don't confess.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by kemal
                  Why do they care about the Turks recognition then?
                  I don't know... umm lets see... justice?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    What Justice

                    They dont know the meaning of the word in their weird nationalistic idioligy one cant ask for justice granted it can only be taken.(Hak istenmez hak alinir)so its a sick homosexual ideology that goes back to their history.
                    "All truth passes through three stages:
                    First, it is ridiculed;
                    Second, it is violently opposed; and
                    Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

                    Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

                    Comment

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