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Found this from and Armenian Muslim

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  • Found this from and Armenian Muslim

    Date:
    16 Sep 2002
    Time:
    05:03:43


    Comments

    Dear All,

    I happened to discover this interesting website, after surfing the net for websites with an alternative view (if you know what I'm saying) of Islam.

    I'm "Turkish" and come from a Muslim background. My story is rather interesting. As a child, I was told by my grandfather that he was actually an Armenian by birth. Apparently, he was the youngest in a family consisting of 5 kids. During the Armenian Genocide, sometime in 1915, his whole family including his relatives as well as family friends and neighbours were killed. I was told that the women were raped and the men tortured, sometimes with their feet nailed.

    My grandfather was the only one in his family which was spared because apparently the Turks collected young Armenian children to be distributed among Turks to be raised as Muslims. After sparing and collecting Armenian kids of up to 12 years of age, orders were given by certain army officers to kill those above 8 years old. My grandad was 10 at that time but because he was small sized, he was fortunately mistaken as one who was 8 and was spared. To the best of his recollection, he came from a village near Diyarbakir and his family name was 'Mahdasian' (or something like that).

    The Muslim family which took him in, was kind to him and treated him as one of their own. His foster siblings fully accepted him. Looking back at the times that my grandad told me his stories, he was always choked with emotions but yet bewildered and confused because he was a Turkish Muslim now and he acknowledged this Turkish family to be his own. Although never very religious, he lived and died a Muslim. I suppose the trauma of the massacre of his family alienated him from being a devout Muslim but at the same time I guess he never questioned Islam as the only true religion.

    Incidentally, my grandmother, his wife was also one of those Armenian children who were spared. She was a devout Muslim and was in a way grateful that the massacre enabled her to be brought up in the true religion, Islam ... even though the family which took her in treated her badly and she was in a way no more than a servant.

    To cut the story short, my family emigrated to Sydney, Australia and I became secularised along the way. Although, Turks and Lebanese Muslims were also trickling into Australia, somehow or other I never mixed with them much (perhaps because they were more conservative and un-Australian). Instead, I mix with other Mediteranean-looking "ethnics" such as Greeks and Macedonians from the "worg" community. My ethnicity (i.e. Turkish) was never an issue but at the same time, I never advertised it. In view of how much Greeks hate the Turks, looking back my friendship with them was rather unusual.

    When I was in my twenties, I had a fair few Armenian and Lebanese-Armenian friends although Armenians and Turks usually don't mix (for the abovementioned reason). Interestingly, when they first got to know me, they told me that I looked distinctly Armenian!! Hmmm !! [My mum is a Turk of Pontic Greek extraction, another Islamised previously Christian minority from northern Turkey. Some of her relatives still practice certain unIslamic rituals which she believes is derived from Christianity]

    Anyway, there was this Armenian guy my age who I really bonded partially because I discovered that his grandfather also survived the massacres of the Armenians and escaped to Lebanon.

    I did some research and only then realised the real extent of the Armenian Genocide. Although, the Turkish government still cooked up all kinds of excuses, I for one know from my grandad that the Armenian Genocide did take place. I guess what gives the Armenian Genocide a religious dimension was that Kurdish and Laz Muslims in no small numbers, participated with the Turks. Interestingly, some of the Turks who took part were allegedly villagers whose Armenian ancestors had converted to Islam. Also, the villages populated by Armenian speaking Muslims were spared [I believe all Armenian-speaking Muslims or Hemshins have been fully Turkicised now. Some sources claim that there are as 2 million Turkish Muslims of pure or mainly Armenian extraction, some of whom still acknowledge their Armenian connection]

    My interest in the Armenian Genocide, led me to read about historical data on other massacres committed by Muslim armies. Although, I have never formally renounced Islam, I have to admit that the attrocities committed in the name of Islam sickens me. It's hard to practice a religion after knowing what my grandad suffered, don't you think?

    The comments and articles posted on your website speak the truth!! Violence naturally flows from the teachings of Islam and attrocities are not perpetrated by a handful of misguided and confused Muslim extremists.

    Although, I do not consider myself anti-Islam, I applaud Al-Mansur, Syed Kamran Mirza, fatemolla, Abul Kasem and Mughal for their works on the various aspects of Islam which are posted in the "Comments" page of the "Feedback" section of this website.

    Enver (just a pseudonym)

    P.S. For the Islamic apologists who attack the testimonies posted herein, please note that your comments with regards to mine is unwelcome. I am not attacking Islam ...so, for once please drop the "Islam is not violent" and "You should also look at what the Christians did" rhetoric, which I am so sick of. You can take your "Killing of Armenian Christians never happened" and shove it up your arse.
    General Antranik (1865-1927): “I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.”

  • #2
    Thank you Joseph goot post
    you have the source by any chanse?
    "All truth passes through three stages:
    First, it is ridiculed;
    Second, it is violently opposed; and
    Third, it is accepted as self-evident."

    Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

    Comment


    • #3
      Interesting story ... and very sad at the same time.
      I was so curious I couldn't wait, I searched the internet myself and I found the website .... This is the page on which the comment was posted it's the very last one, at the bottom of the page...

      Thanks for sharing Joseph

      Comment


      • #4
        You're welcome. I hope the one day we can have some communication with the Hamshin and bring then back to our church.
        General Antranik (1865-1927): “I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.”

        Comment


        • #5
          The stroy sounds like classic evalengelist type story. They publish those who "hate" their own culture and "admire" evalangelists's version of christianity etc. You'll see such people speaking at TBN channel.
          Dont get me wrong Joseph but I have read( or watched) this kind of things quite a lot of times. You know one of the church leaders of this particular evalengalist movement is Turkish, and you would hear same kind of stuff from him as well..

          Hemshin people are free to embrace of the faith of their choice, but I dont think they would ever change their beliefs. I had a friend from that area(not exactly hemhin but close), he once said we do not say "bir iki uc dort" in our village we say "eno dio trio tetsera penta " for 1 2 3 4 and 5. And I said to him because that's greek and around 100,000 Muslim Greeks believed to live in Trabzon and Rize. He suddenly erupted with anger and said "what do you mean, what are you trying to say?", you know people of that area are quite funny, and I began to make fun of him, but he was really angery. Obviously his village is one of those converted to Islam, and they become integral part of Turkish society and culture, and religous muslims. People in general have a clear distinction between ethnicity and religous beliefs. If they believe that salvation is thru believing in Islam they wouldnt change their religon despite their ethnic background. I have told you before that granddad had a family friend called the Kalayji dayi, who is armenian by birth and converted to Islam, he was a devout Muslim my dad recalls and he never rejected his armenian background, pretty much recoinciled both two identities.
          Since 1923, about 1000 or so families became christian, but they were identitied as Muslims by the state, majority of them are Armenian origin, who were registered as Muslims but in reality they are not, after 60s they applied to the court and change their religous orientation from their ID cards.

          Originally posted by Joseph
          You're welcome. I hope the one day we can have some communication with the Hamshin and bring then back to our church.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by TurQ
            The stroy sounds like classic evalengelist type story. They publish those who "hate" their own culture and "admire" evalangelists's version of christianity etc. You'll see such people speaking at TBN channel.
            Dont get me wrong Joseph but I have read( or watched) this kind of things quite a lot of times. You know one of the church leaders of this particular evalengalist movement is Turkish, and you would hear same kind of stuff from him as well..

            Hemshin people are free to embrace of the faith of their choice, but I dont think they would ever change their beliefs. I had a friend from that area(not exactly hemhin but close), he once said we do not say "bir iki uc dort" in our village we say "eno dio trio tetsera penta " for 1 2 3 4 and 5. And I said to him because that's greek and around 100,000 Muslim Greeks believed to live in Trabzon and Rize. He suddenly erupted with anger and said "what do you mean, what are you trying to say?", you know people of that area are quite funny, and I began to make fun of him, but he was really angery. Obviously his village is one of those converted to Islam, and they become integral part of Turkish society and culture, and religous muslims. People in general have a clear distinction between ethnicity and religous beliefs. If they believe that salvation is thru believing in Islam they wouldnt change their religon despite their ethnic background. I have told you before that granddad had a family friend called the Kalayji dayi, who is armenian by birth and converted to Islam, he was a devout Muslim my dad recalls and he never rejected his armenian background, pretty much recoinciled both two identities.
            Since 1923, about 1000 or so families became christian, but they were identitied as Muslims by the state, majority of them are Armenian origin, who were registered as Muslims but in reality they are not, after 60s they applied to the court and change their religous orientation from their ID cards.

            the guy from the story above IS NOT HAMSHIN !!!
            He is a grandchild of 2 Armenian Genocide survivors who were adopted by Turks. That's how he became a muslim. And not every Muslim Armenian is a Hamshin !


            Hamshins are NOT GREEK... maybe your friend from near villages of Hamshins was Greek ethnically. Yet Hamshins WERE Armenians, and in the 15th-16th centurey were Turkified and converted to Muslims. Hamshin speak "Different Language", and it's a dialict of Armenian (maybe with a lot of borrowed words from other languages). And they know that they were originally Armenians, although they don't feel usually as they are Armenians. They are known as "Black Sea Armenians" or " The Secret Armenians", they have hidden their origin for long time, and they were not identified as ethnically Armenians until lately ! One of the captured members of ASALA was a Hamshin, who was thought to be an Armenian until they show his picture on Turkish TV, and people had recognized him.

            Prof. Bert Vaux of Harvard made an extensive researches on the language of the Hamshin, and he concluded that Hamshin speaks "a dialict of Armenian language"... and heres an example of his study.

            Comment


            • #7
              Maral I know Hemshin's are not Greek they are of Armenian origin long time ago-centuries- converted to Islam like the Greeks of Trabzon have converted long long time ago. What I said was for all the people of those area, they resemble each other, north east black sea region people I mean.
              If you say an Hemshin that he/she should turn to Christianity that person will get insulted that was I wanted to say.

              Thanks again for the link deer maral

              Originally posted by maral_m79
              the guy from the story above IS NOT HAMSHIN !!!
              He is a grandchild of 2 Armenian Genocide survivors who were adopted by Turks. That's how he became a muslim. And not every Muslim Armenian is a Hamshin !


              Hamshins are NOT GREEK... maybe your friend from near villages of Hamshins was Greek ethnically. Yet Hamshins WERE Armenians, and in the 15th-16th centurey were Turkified and converted to Muslims. Hamshin speak "Different Language", and it's a dialict of Armenian (maybe with a lot of borrowed words from other languages). And they know that they were originally Armenians, although they don't feel usually as they are Armenians. They are known as "Black Sea Armenians" or " The Secret Armenians", they have hidden their origin for long time, and they were not identified as ethnically Armenians until lately ! One of the captured members of ASALA was a Hamshin, who was thought to be an Armenian until they show his picture on Turkish TV, and people had recognized him.

              Prof. Bert Vaux of Harvard made an extensive researches on the language of the Hamshin, and he concluded that Hamshin speaks "a dialict of Armenian language"... and heres an example of his study.

              Comment


              • #8
                And by the way their dialect is really funny

                Originally posted by maral_m79
                the guy from the story above IS NOT HAMSHIN !!!
                He is a grandchild of 2 Armenian Genocide survivors who were adopted by Turks. That's how he became a muslim. And not every Muslim Armenian is a Hamshin !


                Hamshins are NOT GREEK... maybe your friend from near villages of Hamshins was Greek ethnically. Yet Hamshins WERE Armenians, and in the 15th-16th centurey were Turkified and converted to Muslims. Hamshin speak "Different Language", and it's a dialict of Armenian (maybe with a lot of borrowed words from other languages). And they know that they were originally Armenians, although they don't feel usually as they are Armenians. They are known as "Black Sea Armenians" or " The Secret Armenians", they have hidden their origin for long time, and they were not identified as ethnically Armenians until lately ! One of the captured members of ASALA was a Hamshin, who was thought to be an Armenian until they show his picture on Turkish TV, and people had recognized him.

                Prof. Bert Vaux of Harvard made an extensive researches on the language of the Hamshin, and he concluded that Hamshin speaks "a dialict of Armenian language"... and heres an example of his study.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Cyprus Press and Information Office
                  <http://www.pio.gov.cy/>
                  Dec 30, 2005



                  'Crypto- Armenians' seen as threat in Turkey



                  Istanbul MILLI GAZETE newspaper (28.12.05) publishes the following
                  report under the title: "The Crypto-Armenians among us":

                  The descendants of the "Crypto-Armenians" who hid their identities
                  and appeared to be Muslims in order to escape from the forced
                  migration applied during the deportations imposed in 1915 are now
                  returning to their true identities.

                  It has been stated that Armenians who changed their religion to be
                  ostensible Muslims in order to escape from the forced migration due
                  to the deportation imposed by the Ottoman State in 1915, or else who
                  were given to various families for adoption, succeeded in hiding
                  their existence under this "secret identity" for many years. It is
                  being claimed that there are currently 30 to 40 thousand
                  "Crypto-Armenians" living in Turkey as Turks or Kurds.

                  According to Professor Salim Cohce, who is known for his researches
                  regarding the Armenians, the Crypto-Armenians appear to be Muslims
                  but still maintain their Gregorian traditions. Cohce, stating that
                  some studies have been carried out on these people in recent periods,
                  points out that, in the near future, they are going to be used in
                  order to realize the dreams of the Armenians.

                  Cohce says that they identified over 3,500 Crypto-Armenians in
                  fieldwork conducted in Malatya.

                  Speaking with Aksiyon magazine, Cohce states that yet another
                  interesting determination had been made in Tunceli. He stresses that
                  the population records of two thousand people were taken to Aydin
                  although they themselves did not emigrate, and that two years later,
                  these records were modified to read "Muslim" rather than "Christian"
                  in the religion category, and they were then taken back to Tunceli.
                  Cohce states that the number of converts to Islam following the
                  deportation was about 100 thousand.

                  There are 40 thousand hidden Armenians

                  According to a study entitled "Armenians in Turkey Today" [provided
                  in English] written in 2002 by Dr Tessa Hofmann, who serves as an
                  "expert witness" in the hearings of Turks of Armenian origin who
                  apply for political asylum in Germany, there are "40 thousand hidden
                  Armenians" in Turkey. But it is being seen clearly, in the numbers of
                  people changing their religions, that, apart from certain exceptions,
                  the Armenians who ostensibly converted to Islam in the past are now
                  engaged in returning to their actual identities. While 2,630 people
                  in Turkey changed their religions during the years 1916-2004, 2,172
                  of these consisted of those returning to their previous religions.
                  Over 60 percent of those returning to their original religion, or
                  1,340 people, consisted of Armenians. Those changing their religions
                  were largely registered in various provinces such as Istanbul,
                  Diyarbakir, Adiyaman, Batman, Sivas, Tunceli, Malatya, Elazig,
                  Kayseri, Mersin, and Mardin.

                  Professor Salim Cohce explains that activities involving hidden and
                  converted Armenians in Malatya increased after 1995, and that in
                  2003, some 120 persons of Armenian origin with Muslim names submitted
                  a petition for the re-opening of the church at Cavusoglu.

                  Cohce stresses that covert efforts are being made, via citizens of
                  Armenian origin, to regain deed records and former properties. Cohce
                  also claims that, during investigations conducted in Malatya, they
                  identified "converts" [Turkish muhtedi] who had assumed the position
                  of MHP [Nationalist Action Party] Provincial Chairman.

                  Could be used in "Urban Terrorism"

                  Cohce, indicating that there are also, among the converts, those who
                  truly became Muslims and live accordingly, says that "The 'Crypto-'
                  or 'secret' Armenians are those who only appear to be Muslim in
                  identity. Since they have not to date been seen as a threat, they
                  have not been monitored by the state. Also, they have manipulated
                  their population records. For this reason, it is very difficult to
                  determine their actual numbers."

                  Stressing his belief that the Crypto-Armenians are going to
                  constitute a danger, Cohce points as examples to the efforts made by
                  Armenian groups regarding them, particularly in recent years. Cohce
                  claims that "Efforts are being made to remind them of their
                  identities. Financial assistance is being provided. I think that,
                  just like the emergence of the PKK after ASALA [Armenian Secret Army
                  for the Liberation of Armenia], these people will be used for "urban
                  terrorism" within Turkey in the post-PKK period. Such a formation
                  could be brought about by 2010. Likewise, I believe that, by
                  reminding them consciously of their Armenian identity, these people
                  are in the future going to come before Turkey with demands for land
                  and compensation."

                  Maintain close contact with PKK

                  Cohce, drawing attention to the close contact between the
                  Crypto-Armenians and the PKK, says the following: "A meeting was held
                  in 1980 at the Gulbenkian Foundation, which financed ASALA. It was
                  decided to use the PKK as a "pawn" organization in order for Turkey's
                  authority in the region to be weakened, and for its population to be
                  reduced. The PKK's initial ability to form an effective lobby in
                  Europe and the United States, and to get support, came about with the
                  help of these circles. And the existence of individuals of Armenian
                  origin within the PKK, and even the killing of a number of them,
                  corroborates this. Likewise, the existence of 'Turks' among the
                  founders and current leaders of the PKK is thought-provoking."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I personally know 2 Hamshen families from turkey. They have converted to Christianity and always go to the Armenian Church. I also know 1 Hamshen family from Abkhazia but they were already Christians.

                    Comment

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