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They come out of the woodwork don't they?

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  • They come out of the woodwork don't they?

    Whenever the Genocide issue abounds
    General Antranik (1865-1927): I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Joseph
    Whenever the Genocide issue abounds
    by Deborah E. Lipstadt, The Weekly Standard

    The Weekly Standard
    September 11, 2006 Monday

    Terrible Fate
    Ethnic Cleansing in the Making
    of Modern Europe
    by Benjamin Lieberman
    Ivan R. Dee, 416 pp., $27.50

    Ethnic cleansing has changed the face of Europe. In 1913 Salonika was
    a multicultural city with more Jews and Muslims than Greek Orthodox
    Christians. By the middle of the 20th century it was a Greek city with
    virtually no Jews or Muslims. Until the beginning of the 20th century,
    Macedonia had been home to both Bulgarians and Greeks. In 1916 Greeks
    fled. At the beginning of the 20th century the western sectors of the
    Russian empire were heavily populated by Jews, who had lived there
    for centuries. Within a few decades virtually no Jews lived in these
    areas, or in many other parts of Europe.

    The Polish port city of Gdansk was once a German city. Little, if any,
    of the German presence is felt there today. Izmir used to be home to
    a substantial Greek population. It no longer is. In eastern Turkey
    there are scores of towns and villages once populated by millions
    of Armenians. The Turks expelled them in acts of unprecedented
    In what was the Austro- Hungarian Empire an exceptionally
    diverse mix of peoples once lived. Little of that diversity is still

    These changes were the result not of natural population movements but
    of brutal actions, now termed ethnic cleansing. This is the subject
    of Benjamin Lieberman's compelling book.

    What motivates neighbor to brutally turn on neighbor? It may be
    conflicting languages, religions, or national identities. Some
    attackers consider it a chance for personal gain: Never underestimate
    the lure of looting, or deriving perverse pleasure from driving
    neighbors from their homes. There is yet another factor: history,
    or more properly put, the rendition of history to which one portion
    of the population has been exposed. While these stories of betrayal
    and injustice may be true, others are greatly exaggerated or false.

    As Lieberman demonstrates, ethnic cleansing feeds upon itself. As
    the century progressed it became an increasingly familiar response to
    political situations. People knew it, and considered it a legitimate
    means of solving their perceived problems.

    While the Armenian genocide and the Holocaust are probably the best
    known of the century's atrocities, neither is a template for ethnic
    cleansing, which has generally been used by weak governments to
    deflect attention from genuine problems. In contrast, the Holocaust,
    the Armenian genocide, and, for that matter, Stalin's treatment of
    a host of minorities, were conducted by authoritarian regimes at the
    height of their power.

    The Holocaust is certainly not a template because, generally, ethnic
    cleansing's objective is the removal of a segment of the population
    through deportations, population transfers, and forced migration. The
    perpetrators know that the result of these actions could be death,
    even on a massive scale. However, their objective is not murder. In
    contrast, Nazi Germany chased down every Jew it could find in order
    to murder them. They did so even when the men and materiel used for
    the killing could have been better deployed elsewhere.

    The new Jewish Museum in Rome contains a letter written on a crumpled
    piece of paper by a Jew as he was being deported from the Italian
    capital. It is dated May 20, 1944. Rome was liberated on June 4th. As
    the Allied forces were on Rome's doorstep, the Germans, rather than
    throw all available resources to repelling the enemy, were deporting
    Jews to Auschwitz. The letter writer never returned.

    How might ethnic cleansing be repaired and prevented in the future?

    Unless refugees are returned in short order to their homes, the chances
    for resettlement are very poor. If they do return, there must be local
    reconciliation projects, economic development, legal proceedings,
    and effective guarantees of security. Those who have committed these
    acts must be apprehended and tried in the appropriate legal setting.

    Lieberman believes that historians from both sides of the conflict
    must work together to create an accurate historical record. It may
    well be research by historians--Turkish historians in particular--that
    will compel Turkey to end its genocide denial. As Turkish historians
    explore what their country did, it will become increasingly difficult
    for the government to continue to hide behind historical fictions. But
    it is not sufficient, Lieberman notes, for the historians to conduct
    research. The broader public will have to accept its findings. Once
    that happens, the policymakers will have no choice but to follow in
    their wake.

    Germany's postwar entry into the "family of nations" was hastened by
    its strategic geographic importance in the Cold War. However, that
    reentry would not have been as swift or complete had Germany not openly
    acknowledged and made amends for the unspeakable horrors committed by
    both the Nazi leaders and millions of Germans during World War II. Its
    willingness to face its past was certainly not complete. Perpetrators
    were given light sentences or never prosecuted. Slave laborers found
    it difficult to receive compensation. Nazi-era judges continued in
    their posts. Medical doctors who participated in gassing experiments
    went on to distinguished careers in Germany.

    These failings notwithstanding, Germany did not shrink from
    acknowledging the deeds it had committed and making some restitution
    for them. This certainly facilitated the healing process.

    This is a painful book to read. Many people will recoil from the
    repeated tales of looting, physical persecution, and death. That
    would be a mistake. The only hope for an end to this terrible march
    of horrors is for people--particularly Europeans--to understand and
    acknowledge it. As Lieberman notes in his conclusion, "arriving at
    a new understanding of history" will not resolve all problems, but
    it will increase the chances that different groups will be able to
    live in peace together.

    Deborah E. Lipstadt, professor of Holocaust Studies at Emory, is
    the author, most recently, of History on Trial: My Day in Court with
    David Irving.
    General Antranik (1865-1927): I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.


    • #3
      Originally posted by Ozi
      1. The Aremenians revolted against the Ottomans when the Ottomans were fighting a war and at the worst state they could be.
      2. The Armenians rose up against the Ottomans and sided with the Russians and French.
      3. The Armenians drew FIRST BLOOD. They attacked Muslims, Kurds, and any Citizen of the Ottoman Empire.
      4. The Armenians built up an army of weapons provided by Russians and French
      5. The Aremenians killed Turkish and Kurdish woman and Childhren and laeft their bodies laying in the streets of VAN to rot.
      6. The Russians, French and English USED the Armenians to desicrate the remains of the Ottoman Empire.
      7. The Ottomans decide to protect their other citizens they had to move a third of the Armenians to other areas of the Empire. 500 000 were moved. 390 000 made it safely to their new homes.
      8. The Armenian gangs etc fighting alongside the russians (150 000 of them) kept moving towards the East of Turkey, killing all Turks as they made their way across the country.
      9. The Russians decided to return to their homeland. Leaving the Armenians to fend for them selves.
      10. The Turks came back and fought back for their lands. The Armenians were driven back. (and killed during this time.)
      11. All peace treatys were signed. None of them ever raised the Armenian doctrine. France and England did not even thank the Armenians for anything. They did not even acknowledege their presence!!!

      This is a revot. A failed one at that. You tried, I give you that, but you failed.
      Now go and live with it. No Genocide. A massacre yes, but lots of Turks and Kurds and other Muslims died during these years.

      Accept your destiny!
      This refutes all your arguements:
      General Antranik (1865-1927): I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.


      • #4
        The Armenian Deaths were the Result of a Rebellion and Inter-Communal Fighting?

        The cornerstone of the Turkish Government's policy of denial is that what happened during WWI was inter-communal violence and the result of the Armenian rebellion. It was communal infighting if the organised attack by an empire's army on an unarmed minority can be described as such. In August 1914, all Armenian men between the age of 20 and 45 were conscripted in the Ottoman Army. How could the remaining unarmed Armenian population of mainly women, children and elderly people even contemplate an armed struggle against a majority population backed by a mighty empire, and ally of the German and Austro-Hungarian Empires? The consensus among German and Austrian officials who were in Turkey at the time was that there was no general coordinated rebellion by the Armenian population.

        In a seventy-two page report to Berlin (September 18, 1916), German Ambassador Count Wolff Metternich wrote:

        "There was neither a concerted general uprising nor was there a fully valid proof that such a synchronized uprising was planned or organised."

        Describing the futile and spotty Armenian resistance, Dr. Max Erwin Scheubner-Richter (German vice-consul in Erzerum, in eastern Turkey), wrote in a dispatch dated December 6, 1916:

        "They (the Turkish Leaders) were planning on fabricating, for the benefit of Allied Powers, and alleged revolution stirred up by the Dashnak (Armenian) party. They also planned to inflate the importance of isolated incidents and acts of self-defence by the Armenians and use it as an excuse to deport the targeted population which then would be massacred by escorting gendarmes and assorted gangs."

        Turkish Historian Professor Halil Berktay, on October 9, 2000, during an interview with the Turkish newspaper Raidikal, stated:

        "The activities of the Armenian guerrilla bands were generally localized, small-scale, and isolated."

        Vice-Marshall Joseph Pomiankowski, Austro-Hungary's military plenipotentiary, who during the was was attached to Ottoman general headquarters, described the self-defence of the Armenians as follows:

        "The Van uprising certainly was an act of desperation. The local Armenians realised that the general butchery against the Armenians had started and that they would be the next victims." Collapse of the Ottoman Empire (1928).

        Chief among Turkish government distortions is the accusation that during the First World War Armenians sided with the enemy - Tsarist Russia. At the time historic Armenia was occupied by two empires - the Ottoman and the Russian. Since imperial Russia oppressed Armenians (just as it oppressed its own citizens), there was no love lost between the Armenians and Russians. Armenians were conscripted in the Tsar's army - just as their brothers were in the Ottoman army. Rather than acting as a fifth columnists, Armenians in Turkey were fighting their own brothers on the Russian side - to defend Ottoman Turkey. Its estimated that about 250, 000 Armenians were conscripted into the Turkish Army.

        When Enver Pasha (the Turkish War Minister) was defeated by the Russians at Sarikamish, "It was Armenian soldiers who saved him from being killed or captured by the Czarist forces" ( David Marshall Lang and Christopher Walker, The Armenians: Report 32, Minority Rights Group, 1998). Moreover, Enver is on record for having "praised, in February 1915, the loyalty and bravery of the Armenian soldiers under his command." ( Christopher J. Walker, Armenia: The Survival of a Nation, London, 1980).

        The Turkish government launched its genocide against the Armenians at least three months after the Armenian soldiers had been already disarmed, taken to labour camps and eliminated. Furthermore, in his book The Decline and Fall of the Ottoman Empire (1992) Alan Palmer concluded:

        "...neither group [the Dashnaks or Hunchaks political parties] had links with the Russian government, as Ottoman apologists claim."
        General Antranik (1865-1927): I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.


        • #5
          General Vehib Pasha, Commander of the Turkish Third Army, wrote in a deposition that was read during the March 29, 1919 session of the Turkish Government Court Martials:

          "The massacre and destruction of the Armenians and the plunder and pillage of their goods were the results of decisions reached by Ittihad (the ruling party) Central Committee...The atrocities were carried out under a program that was determined upon and involved a definite case of premeditation."

          Senator Resit Akif Pasha, President of the post-war State Council, declared in November 1918, during the debate on the Armenian massacres:

          "While humbly occupying my post of President of the State Council, to my surprise, I came across a strange [combination] of official orders. One of them, the order for deportation, was issued by the notorious Interior Minister. The other, however, was an ominous secret circular issued by Ittihad's Cenral Committee. It directed the provincial party units to proceed with the execution of the accursed plan, Whereupon the brigands went into action and atrocious massacres were the result."

          Mustafa Arif, Interior Minister of Turkey (1918-1919), in a Turkish newspaper interview in December 1918, stated:

          "Unfortunately, our wartime leaders, imbued with a spirit of brigandage, carried out the law of deportation in a manner that would surpass the proclivities of the most bloodthirsty bandits. They decided to exterminate the Armenians, and they did exterminated them. This decision was taken by the Central Committee of the Young Turks and was implemented by the government."

          Colonel Stange, Commander of the 8th Regiment of the Turkish Army sent (August 23, 1915) a secret report to the German military mission to Turkey, headquartered in the Ottoman capital, bringing to the attention of his German superiors the following facts:

          "The Turks did have a plan [to destroy the Armenians] that was conceived a long time ago. The deportation and destruction of the Armenians was decided upon by the Young Turk [Ittihad] Committee in Constantinople."
          General Antranik (1865-1927): I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.