Skeletons of massacred found in Turkey

[1.5 million]

Yes I supose that there is only one true expert with only one opinion worth noting and only one right way of doing things - any variance automatically disqualifies anyone from contributing or having any ability to add perspective or even comment at all.

[samarkeolog]

I presume bell-the-cat is Anonymous/S., who commented on the blog post on the mass grave. As I do not and would not expect everybody here to go there (indeed, to think that he/she would have commented there and me to have replied), I thought I ought to give some kind of response here.

Anonymous [S.] commented that:

I cringe, I genuinely cringe, at the amateurishness and misinformation you are displaying with such eagerness. I've lived through 3 decades of self-interested or cowardly archaeologists turning a blind-eye to anything Armenian and never mentioning the "A" word in public. But their silence is preferable to your bullxxxx.

What sort of fool seriously cites "The Rough Guide to Turkey" as an academic source? Grow up, or shut up and stop making a laughing-stock of archaeology as a profession.

I presumed 'the amateurishness and misinformation' and 'bullxxxx' referred to me having read the Rough Guide to Turkey, rather than me having visited the mass grave in Kuru/Xirabebaba. As the title and contents of the post indicated, it comprised fieldwork notes extracts - that is, extracts from notes made during fieldwork.... Fieldwork notes are not academic texts; so, fieldwork sources are not necessarily academic sources.... As I was skimming through the guidebook, I noticed the mention of Vakıflıköy and jotted it down.

I appealed that, if there were other openly Armenian villages, I would've been glad to correct the 'misinformation' I had apparently spread, but that bell-the-cat/Anonymous/S. would have to correct, rather than merely condemn, the Rough Guide line, which he/she did not do in his/her follow up post. I later noted the corroborating Today's Zaman article that interviewed locals in Vakıflı, 'Turkey's last surviving ethnic Armenian village'.

Anonymous/S. followed up (with some stuff I can't be bothered with here, but also):

And why no info about how you located the site, how did you know which cave it was, and so on?

There is no information about how I located the site because I do not wish to endanger those who have helped me by revealing their identities; moreover, information about the site's location, like photographs of its entrance, would help certain interested parties either to contaminate it further or to claim that people other than themselves may have found and contaminated the site.

David Gaunt seems to have jumped in and made specific allegations before he really knew anything for certain (i.e. before he or any other expert had visited the site).

He/she clearly hadn't read either of the pieces I'd provided links to. (I also made available a larger collection of links to both Turkish-language and English-language sources on the site.)

Through the links, b./a./s. could have seen that (with my emphases) Blogian recorded that:

After seeing the site, Prof. Gaunt refused to continue his participation because the initial photographs of the mass grave (taken by a Turkish-language Kurdish newspaper) from October of 2006 - when it was discovered - were quite different from the site he was taken to. He told Zaman, "My impression is that this grave is one in which no scientific research can be carried out. The grave has undergone numerous changes so it is not recognizable."

The Turkish Daily News also carried the explanation of why the site was one in which 'no scientific research' could have been carried out and, in another post, Blogian also presented before and after photographs of the site together to make it easier to see and understand the interference.

I suspect his hasty words were probably connected with generating self-publicity for his book that was published at the same time. And the site – now politicised and publicised – became, not unsurprisingly, a target for a little bit of cleansing by local officials.

First, the coincidental timing was determined by the villagers' accidental discovery of the site; second, it became politicised and publicised because of its destruction, not destroyed because of its infamy.

I told b./a./s. that his/her continued condemnation without correction 'does give the impression that there is no correction to be made' and asked for 'contrary sources', but none were forthcoming.

As for post 19 here, I could say the same of someone who doesn't understand the difference between and so the ability to hold both English and British identities.

(Having returned to Cyprus for two) I'd been living in Turkey for seven months when I visited the site, which I did after reading a dozen or more sources and having had contact with a few of the archaeologists involved.

As for the thing b./a./s. has about the Rough Guide, the Daily Telegraph found it '[t]he best of the bunch with sound practical information' and the Independent on Sunday judged it 'excellent' - and I bought the most recent edition available at the time, as I went to Turkey months before the new edition was published.

B./A./S. seems to confuse conducting research with using a guidebook to find good food and cheap accommodation and occasionally finding points of interest to follow up on.

My observations about the mass grave were those of an archaeologist who'd read all of the material he could get hold of on the site and talked with archaeologists and locals who had personal knowledge of it; my use of the Rough Guide to Turkey was limited to finding a cheap hotel in Mardin from which to travel out to Kuru from.

If a preternatural knowledge of previously-unvisited places' local hotels and restaurants is a professional benchmark for archaeologists, then I am clearly not qualified or knowledgeable enough to have an opinion about an archaeological site.

If it isn't, I don't know what Anonymous/S./bell-the-cat's motives are in desperately trying to find an excuse to undermine the evidence/sources presented (without ever striking upon an actual reason).

[Joseph]

I presume bell-the-cat is Anonymous/S., who commented on the blog post on the mass grave. As I do not and would not expect everybody here to go there (indeed, to think that he/she would have commented there and me to have replied), I thought I ought to give some kind of response here.

Anonymous [S.] commented that:

I cringe, I genuinely cringe, at the amateurishness and misinformation you are displaying with such eagerness. I've lived through 3 decades of self-interested or cowardly archaeologists turning a blind-eye to anything Armenian and never mentioning the "A" word in public. But their silence is preferable to your bullxxxx.

What sort of fool seriously cites "The Rough Guide to Turkey" as an academic source? Grow up, or shut up and stop making a laughing-stock of archaeology as a profession.

I presumed 'the amateurishness and misinformation' and 'bullxxxx' referred to me having read the Rough Guide to Turkey, rather than me having visited the mass grave in Kuru/Xirabebaba. As the title and contents of the post indicated, it comprised fieldwork notes extracts - that is, extracts from notes made during fieldwork.... Fieldwork notes are not academic texts; so, fieldwork sources are not necessarily academic sources.... As I was skimming through the guidebook, I noticed the mention of Vakıflıköy and jotted it down.

I appealed that, if there were other openly Armenian villages, I would've been glad to correct the 'misinformation' I had apparently spread, but that bell-the-cat/Anonymous/S. would have to correct, rather than merely condemn, the Rough Guide line, which he/she did not do in his/her follow up post. I later noted the corroborating Today's Zaman article that interviewed locals in Vakıflı, 'Turkey's last surviving ethnic Armenian village'.

Anonymous/S. followed up (with some stuff I can't be bothered with here, but also):

And why no info about how you located the site, how did you know which cave it was, and so on?

There is no information about how I located the site because I do not wish to endanger those who have helped me by revealing their identities; moreover, information about the site's location, like photographs of its entrance, would help certain interested parties either to contaminate it further or to claim that people other than themselves may have found and contaminated the site.

David Gaunt seems to have jumped in and made specific allegations before he really knew anything for certain (i.e. before he or any other expert had visited the site).

He/she clearly hadn't read either of the pieces I'd provided links to. (I also made available a larger collection of links to both Turkish-language and English-language sources on the site.)

Through the links, b./a./s. could have seen that (with my emphases) Blogian recorded that:

After seeing the site, Prof. Gaunt refused to continue his participation because the initial photographs of the mass grave (taken by a Turkish-language Kurdish newspaper) from October of 2006 - when it was discovered - were quite different from the site he was taken to. He told Zaman, "My impression is that this grave is one in which no scientific research can be carried out. The grave has undergone numerous changes so it is not recognizable."

The Turkish Daily News also carried the explanation of why the site was one in which 'no scientific research' could have been carried out and, in another post, Blogian also presented before and after photographs of the site together to make it easier to see and understand the interference.

I suspect his hasty words were probably connected with generating self-publicity for his book that was published at the same time. And the site – now politicised and publicised – became, not unsurprisingly, a target for a little bit of cleansing by local officials.

First, the coincidental timing was determined by the villagers' accidental discovery of the site; second, it became politicised and publicised because of its destruction, not destroyed because of its infamy.

I told b./a./s. that his/her continued condemnation without correction 'does give the impression that there is no correction to be made' and asked for 'contrary sources', but none were forthcoming.

As for post 19 here, I could say the same of someone who doesn't understand the difference between and so the ability to hold both English and British identities.

(Having returned to Cyprus for two) I'd been living in Turkey for seven months when I visited the site, which I did after reading a dozen or more sources and having had contact with a few of the archaeologists involved.

As for the thing b./a./s. has about the Rough Guide, the Daily Telegraph found it '[t]he best of the bunch with sound practical information' and the Independent on Sunday judged it 'excellent' - and I bought the most recent edition available at the time, as I went to Turkey months before the new edition was published.

B./A./S. seems to confuse conducting research with using a guidebook to find good food and cheap accommodation and occasionally finding points of interest to follow up on.

My observations about the mass grave were those of an archaeologist who'd read all of the material he could get hold of on the site and talked with archaeologists and locals who had personal knowledge of it; my use of the Rough Guide to Turkey was limited to finding a cheap hotel in Mardin from which to travel out to Kuru from.

If a preternatural knowledge of previously-unvisited places' local hotels and restaurants is a professional benchmark for archaeologists, then I am clearly not qualified or knowledgeable enough to have an opinion about an archaeological site.

If it isn't, I don't know what Anonymous/S./bell-the-cat's motives are in desperately trying to find an excuse to undermine the evidence/sources presented (without ever striking upon an actual reason).

Thanks for your response and clarification and welcome to the forum.

[Gavur]

It's fun to play hide and go seek, isn't it?

[1.5 million]

Well said Samarkeolog. I had the same impression (ie when is a knowledge of local cheap hotels a necessary precondition for either useful archeological credentials or an ability to observe and comment on situations encountered)? Anyway I thought you made your points (or passed on Hardy's points if you are not he...) about the site and the Turkish treatment of it (and the consitency of such with the general pattern of denial) quite well and presented an interesting account of your (or Hardy's) trip there and I look forward to hearing about your (and/or Hardy's) continued involvement in this issue. Its a shame that there are certain others out there who might also have some worthwhile knowledge about this and related issues but are too personally damaged and lacking in human social interactive skills to enable them to overcome their paranoia and jeolosy of others to be able to contribute in a normal and acceptable fashion. Instead they just lash out nastily - making them feel better about themselves and in doing reinforcing their self delusion of being the only person on the planet who actually knows something worthwhile about these things and thinking that their perspective is the one an only worth knowing. Pity.

[Steph]

Well said Samarkeolog. I had the same impression (ie when is a knowledge of local cheap hotels a necessary precondition for either useful archeological credentials or an ability to observe and comment on situations encountered)? Anyway I thought you made your points (or passed on Hardy's points if you are not he...) about the site and the Turkish treatment of it (and the consitency of such with the general pattern of denial) quite well and presented an interesting account of your (or Hardy's) trip there and I look forward to hearing about your (and/or Hardy's) continued involvement in this issue. Its a shame that there are certain others out there who might also have some worthwhile knowledge about this and related issues but are too personally damaged and lacking in human social interactive skills to enable them to overcome their paranoia and jeolosy of others to be able to contribute in a normal and acceptable fashion. Instead they just lash out nastily - making them feel better about themselves and in doing reinforcing their self delusion of being the only person on the planet who actually knows something worthwhile about these things and thinking that their perspective is the one an only worth knowing. Pity.

Well said.

[samarkeolog]

Thank you everyone for the welcome and the support; it's reassuring to know that's how others felt and that I wasn't missing something. I would say the illogic of his complaints confused me, but, yesterday having (re-)read Turkish nationalist propaganda about Greek Cypriot treatment of the Turkish Cypriots, where they defended their own conversion of a church into a museum, but protested the Greek Cypriots' conversion of a school into, a, er, school...

[Joseph]

Thank you everyone for the welcome and the support; it's reassuring to know that's how others felt and that I wasn't missing something. I would say the illogic of his complaints confused me, but, yesterday having (re-)read Turkish nationalist propaganda about Greek Cypriot treatment of the Turkish Cypriots, where they defended their own conversion of a church into a museum, but protested the Greek Cypriots' conversion of a school into, a, er, school...

You're welcome. I look forward to your continued postings and observations.

[bell-the-cat]

I presume bell-the-cat is Anonymous/S., who commented on the blog post on the mass grave. As I do not and would not expect everybody here to go there (indeed, to think that he/she would have commented there and me to have replied), I thought I ought to give some kind of response here.

Anonymous [S.] commented that:

I cringe, I genuinely cringe, at the amateurishness and misinformation you are displaying with such eagerness. I've lived through 3 decades of self-interested or cowardly archaeologists turning a blind-eye to anything Armenian and never mentioning the "A" word in public. But their silence is preferable to your bullxxxx.

What sort of fool seriously cites "The Rough Guide to Turkey" as an academic source? Grow up, or shut up and stop making a laughing-stock of archaeology as a profession.

I presumed 'the amateurishness and misinformation' and 'bullxxxx' referred to me having read the Rough Guide to Turkey, rather than me having visited the mass grave in Kuru/Xirabebaba. As the title and contents of the post indicated, it comprised fieldwork notes extracts - that is, extracts from notes made during fieldwork.... Fieldwork notes are not academic texts; so, fieldwork sources are not necessarily academic sources.... As I was skimming through the guidebook, I noticed the mention of Vakıflıköy and jotted it down.

I appealed that, if there were other openly Armenian villages, I would've been glad to correct the 'misinformation' I had apparently spread, but that bell-the-cat/Anonymous/S. would have to correct, rather than merely condemn, the Rough Guide line, which he/she did not do in his/her follow up post. I later noted the corroborating Today's Zaman article that interviewed locals in Vakıflı, 'Turkey's last surviving ethnic Armenian village'.

Anonymous/S. followed up (with some stuff I can't be bothered with here, but also):

And why no info about how you located the site, how did you know which cave it was, and so on?

There is no information about how I located the site because I do not wish to endanger those who have helped me by revealing their identities; moreover, information about the site's location, like photographs of its entrance, would help certain interested parties either to contaminate it further or to claim that people other than themselves may have found and contaminated the site.

David Gaunt seems to have jumped in and made specific allegations before he really knew anything for certain (i.e. before he or any other expert had visited the site).

He/she clearly hadn't read either of the pieces I'd provided links to. (I also made available a larger collection of links to both Turkish-language and English-language sources on the site.)

Through the links, b./a./s. could have seen that (with my emphases) Blogian recorded that:

After seeing the site, Prof. Gaunt refused to continue his participation because the initial photographs of the mass grave (taken by a Turkish-language Kurdish newspaper) from October of 2006 - when it was discovered - were quite different from the site he was taken to. He told Zaman, "My impression is that this grave is one in which no scientific research can be carried out. The grave has undergone numerous changes so it is not recognizable."

The Turkish Daily News also carried the explanation of why the site was one in which 'no scientific research' could have been carried out and, in another post, Blogian also presented before and after photographs of the site together to make it easier to see and understand the interference.

I suspect his hasty words were probably connected with generating self-publicity for his book that was published at the same time. And the site – now politicised and publicised – became, not unsurprisingly, a target for a little bit of cleansing by local officials.

First, the coincidental timing was determined by the villagers' accidental discovery of the site; second, it became politicised and publicised because of its destruction, not destroyed because of its infamy.

I told b./a./s. that his/her continued condemnation without correction 'does give the impression that there is no correction to be made' and asked for 'contrary sources', but none were forthcoming.

As for post 19 here, I could say the same of someone who doesn't understand the difference between and so the ability to hold both English and British identities.

(Having returned to Cyprus for two) I'd been living in Turkey for seven months when I visited the site, which I did after reading a dozen or more sources and having had contact with a few of the archaeologists involved.

As for the thing b./a./s. has about the Rough Guide, the Daily Telegraph found it '[t]he best of the bunch with sound practical information' and the Independent on Sunday judged it 'excellent' - and I bought the most recent edition available at the time, as I went to Turkey months before the new edition was published.

B./A./S. seems to confuse conducting research with using a guidebook to find good food and cheap accommodation and occasionally finding points of interest to follow up on.

My observations about the mass grave were those of an archaeologist who'd read all of the material he could get hold of on the site and talked with archaeologists and locals who had personal knowledge of it; my use of the Rough Guide to Turkey was limited to finding a cheap hotel in Mardin from which to travel out to Kuru from.

If a preternatural knowledge of previously-unvisited places' local hotels and restaurants is a professional benchmark for archaeologists, then I am clearly not qualified or knowledgeable enough to have an opinion about an archaeological site.

If it isn't, I don't know what Anonymous/S./bell-the-cat's motives are in desperately trying to find an excuse to undermine the evidence/sources presented (without ever striking upon an actual reason).

Prof Gaunt opened his mouth without having any evidence to back up his claims. He gave his opinions without having visited the site, and without having seen any proper photographs of the site. All he saw were some low-resolution newspaper photos. Nor did he use words like "maybe" or "possibly" to characterise his theory. No, he was so certain that only the word "likely" would do! Such clearly unprofessional behaviour questions his academic credability. More so, when one considers he made those comments in the run-up to the publication of his book dealing with the events which he claimed the cave contained relics of.

No-one is expecting you to name the names of those who took you there. But some explanation of how you found your way to the right cave is required, otherwise how do we know you even were there. And you didn't even bring a torch?

What evidence do you have to back up your claim to have "visited my first mass grave today, my first nationalist-archaeologist-allied-with-the-military-destroyed mass grave"? Didn't even occur to you to use the word word alleged! All you have is hot air. You are a typical self-obsessed blogger. Stop posturing.

As for the rest of you, the reality is that any value in samarkeolog's activity relating to this news report is illusionary. As illusionary as the value of the initial reports, Gaunt's opinions, and the Turkish "excavation". The only value here is the proof that amongst younger archaeologists, Armenian stuff is now seen as "cool". Which is something positive, I suppose, since earlier generations would tremble and go pale at the mere mention of the word.

[samarkeolog]

Hi,

I just saw the note about the bone fragments. If you still have them, crinkle up some aluminium foil, then unfold it and wrap the bones in it, then put them in a pierced plastic bag or a box or something; then, yeah, contact a museum (although one local to you would be fine, as they'd know what to do with them, or have a place to store them, someone to look at them or an idea of where they'd best be kept).