Please Sign This Petition: Özür diliyoruz

[lal]

Your problem is ,you want to follow but you find it difficult,you want to lead but find your self unprapered and to stand by and watch is exhausting,so what to do.What to do?

well may be ım confused to certain amount. but ı have no confusion about the genocide , ı am sure that it did happen and turkish version do not satisfy me at all. ım also very certain about the embarrasing behavior of turks who oppose to our individual apology.all the armenians remaning few ,ı see in turkey are my sisters.so far so clear.AG is a very dark part of our history.

but ım not so sure about the rest of the things you talk here. especially ı cant respect to mr arda . ı do not consider turks fight for independence as a make up story. ı cant criticize great ataturk as genocider or dictator. ı mean everybody was dictator in those years. you dont think todays poitics.

ı never accept greek genocide when many men were slaughtered from my own family by them.

ı dont accept karabağ as a finished issue.

life is not black and white. ım always in the grey area, in every subject.

[Joseph]

I would rather not censor this site but lately we have seen childish arguements that do not further the purpose here. Let's refrain from petty insults, name-calling, provocation. I ask that you make your agruements/ points clear. All of you have much to offer and as adults we need to be sensitive to everyone's opinion. We can disagree or agree to anything but show humility and reason. And no, this it not a democracy here.

I have already taken the step of immediately banning denialists but I will not let this forum deteriorate into ultra-nationalism as some of the others I have seen.

[Joseph]

okay, but ı sent 150 messeges, in all of them ı said ı sincerely admit the genocide. and he calls me a grey wolfe. something very disgusting ı consider.you think ı deserved it. ı think ı have the right not to hate everything about my country and culture. No?

good night.

I agree.

[Joseph]

When I did call you grey wolf?
Ok we understood you admit the genocide, what we must give you a medal for it and forgive all provocations you make? Don’t be such a spoiled girl. No one makes you to hate your country and culture, but it dosent means we must not tell the truth…

Again, please stop the name calling and provocation. I don't want to ban anyone but this is my final warning.

[berkopath]

do you want apology so that turks look better in europe since you live there,

or do you apologise only for moral reasons and a better country like me.

can you please tell me.

lal

Hi lal,

I understand your concerns about this case. I want to be honest here for all the readers of this topic. First of all, I m happy to find this forum out since some Armenian brothers are having deep intellectual knowledge and we can build bridges to share a lot of things for the future by also keeping away any fascist thougts from ourselves. Because, the most important thing here is that we are trying to "accomplish" something here.

Me, I have not got any deep knowledge about what happened in the past. However, my next goal in my self improvement journey is to read as much as I can about the incidents what happened in 1915. What I have learnt until now is from only couple of articles read in the newspaper TARAF from the columnists that I trust as much as my family (Murat Belge, Ahmet Altan, Etyen Mahçupyan, Halil Berktay....) And I would also contact some Armenian friends that I will have in the future with the help of this forum to suggest me some sources. The reason of this curiosity is only the motivation in my life to inform people who are living around me about this historical tragedy. Now, my knowledge database is not having enough data to get into the discussions with the most close people around me.

Now, you have the right to ask me that why I have signed this petition?

Ok. Maybe it s morally wrong for an individual to get involved in these critical issues when not having enough knowledge about what exactly happened about the topic. And this is not because you may find your way totally different at the end but just to understand the main basics of the thing that you contribute. BUT,

I have the knowledge about the soul of the Ittihat&Terakki party of the Ottoman Empire. I have the knowledge about the soul of the cruelness of our state that how it tried to treat every single "other" in this country. I have the knowledge about the profile that this soul is trying to build in every single citizen that he owns. If your thoughts and lifestyle deviates any little than this profile than you also become the enemy of this soul as being a new "other". This soul is against this petition and its contributors today. I m not trying to personalise this guys so please don t get me wrong. My intension is definately not to disrespect to anything that happened in the past as I also stated in the beginning of this post. So, since also being a minor "other" in Turkey with my thougts against some issues, my place is definately to be in the list of this petition. As the commander of the Turkish Armed Forces (Org. Ilker Basbug) said couple of months ago "Stay still in the right place", I am staying in my "right" place here.

Some other comments:

You may disagree with mr.arda in many aspects. But please do not classify him with your thoughts. Arda is not insulting to anyone as far as I read his comments in the forum. Maybe he dislikes Ataturk and he may freely express his dislike with any comment against him. Why should this create any discomfort in you? I respect Ataturk with his leadership and personally I also like "some" of his personal features. There also things that I strongly oppose to him. But ok I mean. This is me. And I don t give anything to anyone's thoughts about him. Why should I? If you say, do you think like the same if anyone here would insult Ataturk, then I would just leave this case to the insulter him/herself. Anyone can be also offensive against him since the benefits that Ataturk gained for Turkey was the natural losses for others. This is how it is. He was a real enemy for a serious majority of people in our region. And if I were them, I would also be without today's thoughts of mine. The important thing here is that not to darken these days with the thoughts that we have about the people of the past. Let s simplify the case with Ataturk. You like Fenerbahce (do you by the way? ) and Arda does not...It "must" be as simple as this. If you say that it can't, then yes dear..We have to divide apart. Because there would be no room for us to live together here with all these millionated differential of thoughts.

And..I do not need any medal for signing this petition. I just need to have some friends here. Let s get focused on the historical event without taking any sides. If anyone would feel any sense of a side for another here, then the tolerence would be defeated (there also should not be a need for tolerance. If it exists then it s a risk for it to get defeated. So, let s be free from the tolerance also. And I m not talking about the tolerance that anyone need to have about the AG. There s no need for that by default. It s about the other issues that people may argue in this forum with each other). Sorry, I don t give a damn for both sides (countries) here. I just care about the people who have sufferred in the past and I am against the ones who made them to suffer. This is what truly hurts me even with the things that I know today with a missing knowledge.

I stongly believe that we all should be in the state of mind of a space creature which would not also take you away from the path of truth. If you need any nationality to evaluate and decide upon the case here, than you re finished. As being a human. You might be a sensitive citizen under a specified flag which is specified by some people that you even don t know but that s all.

And lal. Turkey's image in Europe. It is not possible to correct it. So you can make sure of yourself that this is not the case

Good night.

ps: thanks for the warm welcome guys. I got the movie of "Journey to the sun". I would probably watch the movie this week.

[No Pasaran]

ı am really disgusted by the extreme reaction of the opposers to apology. ı try to understand them. but ı cant. our military and prime minister stated that, this is against to the interests of our country. well ım not sure. but even it is so, we do need to accept the facts.unfortunately these reactions showwed the real face of turks and turkish state clearly.

but , on the other hand, ı really dont like to be considered in the same side with people like mr arda. ı mean he wants turkey to be divided into many pieces,not only kurdistan, he wants turkey to accept many other genocides,he doesnt respect ataturk,he can ally with islamists , he is emberrased by our national fights,etc.so, ı dont understand them at all either. and ı dont want to be considered the same with these people.

ı only want turkey to be a more modern country. thats all. being a modern country means ,being able to criticize yourself, but not to hate yourself, more human rights, more democracy, more justice,less poorness, less religon, less nationalizm.but not giving any land to nobody, not accept every tragedy,bloody fight as a genocide.

ı want improvement in our relationship with armenians ,if they can reply.but not unconditionally. ı feel extreme sympathy to armenians who complain of ottomans violance,ı get embarassed. but ı do not feel sympathy to armenians who consider everyhing about turks evil.

what do you think. do you think like mr arda, turkey must surrender unconditionally and do all of the most nationalist armenians demand.--which ım sure is a deep dream,never,ever can happen-- . or

do you want apology so that turks look better in europe since you live there,

or do you apologise only for moral reasons and a better country like me.

can you please tell me.

lal

well first i have a big difference between Arda and me. In my opinion "if there is a god, we should destroy it" like emma goldman

Kemalism is not ideology and also i am not a anti-kemalist too.

I saw a lot of corruption in political organization even in my highschool years.

I don't believe any politician.

Armenian genocide is not a political issue for me or I don't expect anything can be good for Turkey with using AG. In my opinion i am not trying to harm my motherland too.

I just believe things are wrong. Armenian people suffered a lot and nobody did anything for their pain. I was not much interested in Ag till Hrant Dink killed. I felt his death as my father. I just become a member in here do something after.

as Hrant says "Armenians are the doctors of Turks and aldo Turks are the doctors of Armenians."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ualde25hhd0

[Edoman]

The translation to Portuguese is not correct on the site of apology.

It states:
A minha consciencia não aceita ficar invisível verso a negação da grande catástrofe que é entendida pelos Armenios do Império Otomano Respingo essa injustiça por minha parte
compactuo os sentimentos e do dos meus irmãos e irmãs Armenios. Peço desculpa por eles.

“My consciousness does not accept to be invisible towards of denial of greater catastrophe which IS ATTEMPTED BY ARMENIANS OF OTTOMAN EMPIRE.”I reject this injustice for my share; I empathize with the feelings of ALSO my Armenian brothers and sisters. I ASK FORGIVNESS FOR THEM.


I have tried to contact the webmaster but culdnt find a contact. Any one can contact the administrator of the site ? I can provide a cporrect translation.

This is correct translation of text of apology to Portugues:

A minha consciencia não aceita ficar indeferente ao negação da Grande Catástrofe ao que Armenios do Império Otomano foram submetidos em 1915 Rejeito essa injustiça por minha parte e compartilho os sentimentos dos meus irmãos e irmãs Armenios. Peço desculpa ao eles.

Vahe jan, If what you say is true then this cannot be a mistake.
How many Turks can actually read Portuguese? Why am I not surprised. This makes me furious not only because they always play these racist games but also they will use and sacrifice their own, just to make a point sometimes.

Like I have always told some hardhead Turks that Armenians and most liberal/moderate Turks share the same enemy, for different reasons but nevertheless, the same ideology behind the problem.

My suggestion to them is to cooperate fully with the Turkish Elite, I don’t think our Turkish friends understand fully the extend of who they are dealing with.

[Steph]

ı never accept greek genocide when many men were slaughtered from my own family by them.

ı dont accept karabağ as a finished issue.

life is not black and white. ım always in the grey area, in every subject.

lal, others have already asked you this but I'll ask again. You refer to Artsakh in many posts now for a few days, stating that this issue between Armenia and azeris must be resolved.
You stated that you know very little about Artsakh, please can you research the issue?

I'm sorry for your family's losses but the fact,however hard to accept, is that there was a Greek Genocide. Your logic for denying it, perhaps understandable, is faulty.

I'm also sure that Vahe had no intention to personally insult you, I didn't see the post, but can guess some idea from posts surrounding it. You become agitated when you perceive an insult, please imagine other peoples' reactions to percieved insults too. One big problem with forums is that we generally use English here, it's second, third or even fourth language for many members. We all try to "talk" in our posts, what the posts can't show is our body language, facial expressions, hand gestures, changes in our tone of voice etc.. I tend to read posts twice or even three times to try to understand how it was written.
What I am pleased about is that you remain and continue to discuss.

[ardakilic]

but , on the other hand, ı really dont like to be considered in the same side with people like mr arda. ı mean he wants turkey to be divided into many pieces,not only kurdistan, he wants turkey to accept many other genocides,he doesnt respect ataturk,he can ally with islamists , he is emberrased by our national fights,etc.so, ı dont understand them at all either. and ı dont want to be considered the same with these people.

How superficial consideration lal!

I am sorry but these considerations are really contamined by Kemalism. Let me try to explain:

1. Division of Turkey
- Division of Turkey is not necessity. But, although nation as a political entity is an imaginery and constructed notion, i defend self-determination right of people. So, i defend "voluntarily integration". However, first aim should be the destruction of Turkish oppresion and persecution. After that, two nations can be integrated in terms of state but if Kurdish people doesnot want this solution, they have right to have their own independence. If Kemal didnot deceive Kurdish people, we wouldnt discuss this issue. Shortly: Kemal promised Kurdish notables a federation but after he took the power, started massacres and denied their identity. Please see Amasya Protocols, El-Cezire Cephesi Kumandanlığına Emir or Izmit Sohbetleri. You will see the whole story.

2. Kurdistan
- Kurdistan is a geographical naming. As Kemalist state and contamined-Turks supposed, it is not necessarily political. Kurdistan is where Kurds live. So simple!

3. "Other Genocides"
- If you are fair, not only AG, but Assyrian Genocide, Greek Genocide and Dersim Genocide should be accepted. If you mention confrontation of past, how can you recognize one and deny others?

If your argument is "They killed us we killed them", please remember that this is Turkish denial system works so. And please remember that Greek expulsion started in 1912, when nothing happened.

"War between two nations" argument is also used in AG denial. It is true that some Armenian bands attacked Turk and Kurd villages. But when? When you look at attack dates, you will see they all are in 1918 and after. Shouldnot we condemn that since they happened after Genocide as revenge acts? I think no, they were also atrocities but not Genocide.

4. Respect for Kemal
- I mentioned this. I cant have any kind of respect to a bloody dictator. In my opinion, he has no difference from Talat or Enver. Just foxier than them.

5. Ally with Islamist
- Of course i can. What's wrong with it? When your Kemalists call for an army coup d'etat, those some honest Islamists blame army murders in Hakkari, Kurdistan. Remaining their and my view conserved, i can ally my people's representatives. Their criticism on Kemalism are right in many aspects.

6. Shame for your national fights
- If you imply so-called War of Independence, Turco-Greek war namely, i am not ashamed for this. But if you try to abuse this war in order to legalize Kemalist dictatorship, please stop here. I am asshamed for that Turkish troops burnt beatiful Smirna and ashamed for the atrocities of Greek troops. But i feel honour for the communist Greek soldiers who objected to fight in Anatolia as an invader power.

You told "ı dont understand them at all either". Which point didnt you understand?

[ardakilic]

Kemalism is not ideology and also i am not a anti-kemalist too.

This argument is also a Kemalist argument in order to avoid the discussion.

Whenever you propose, for example, "Kemalism is...", they reply "No, Kemalism is not a rigid ideology. It is a doctrine of pro-science, pro-rationality and modernism. It is so flexible in order to fit present civilization level".

Please see the writings of Mahmut Esat xxxkurt (Justice Minister of Kemal), Recep Peker (General Secretary of Kemal) and Tekin Alp (aka Moiz Cohen, ideologue of Kemalism).

So you see, i never refer to anti-Kemalist writers like Nuri Dersimi, İsmail Beşikçi or Abdurrahman Dilipak.

Have a look on original Kemalist resources and see it is so similar to Mussolini's fascism. Only much more bloodier than Italian one.