April 24

[Haykakan]

So it was that time of the year again when some of us armenians gather to comemorate the genocide which has effected us all so deeply. I have been living in the Detroit area for over 30 years and have seen as many april 24 events come and go and to date they were all amazingly unremarkable as a matter of fact some of them were offensive to put it mildly. I remember one year when one of the clergy said we deserved the genocide because we were not religious enough. I wanted to knock that guys head off but my wife talked me out of it. The disapointing parade of ever changing polititions brought before us to make us believe we have a shot at getting justice became so mundane and procedural and the results we hoped for became ever more out of our reach. We as a diaspora have waisted our resources and time on what is basicaly a show and nothing more for many decades and i expected nothing more then that when i attended the event last night. The evening began with the usual poam-dance-introductions.. then Baroness Cox gave us a rather lively slide show presentation of things that she has accomplished in Kharabagh and talked about how wonderful the people there were. This was new and a welcomed change from the regular even when it was not clear if she was helping us because we were armenians or because we were chrystians. So ok this was nice but then a man named Mushegh Muradyan was introduced and again due to past events my expectations were woefully low of anything significant coming out of this event but then there it was. First the man thanked the commmunity for helping him and his family deal with his daughters cancer(he was very emotional) and then he started talking about why it is important that we remember and commemorate and fight for justice. Its not like he said anything new but it was the way he said it and the way he emphasized that history was on our side and how just our caus is. Ok so far this was already better then any of the previous commemorations but it was going to get a lot better. He went on to talk about how the xxxish lobby was working with the turks and successfully impeding armenian causes on the political front (you could see the frustration on his face). He then went on to say that USA no longer abided by its founding principles and that it was our job as armenian citizens of USA to remind her polititions of what this country stood for. He then emphasized the fact that the diaspora needs to help the state of Armenia and Kharabagh despite their imperfections for it has only been 20 years of independence and we cannot expect perfection when it took this country hundreds of years to get to where it is and he mentioned again that it is very corrupt(the USA). He went on to point out that Armenia's enemies are conspiring to destroy Armenia once and for all ie. the meeting on panturkism held in naxichevan, the huge militery spending by azeris, huge international antiarmenian propoganda..He then stated that he was very much anti russian/communist for decades but that now he realizes that the only reason that Armenia still exists is because the turk is afraiad of Russia. He emphasized Russia like no diasporan ever has and this was indeed a big change for i had long stated the same things but since i was from the soviet union the diasporans figured i was bias and to hear it coming from this guy(first time ever i heard it from any diasporan publicly) i hope made an impression. I liked the fact that this man emphasized 1 justice and history are on our side 2 the danger Armenia and Kharabagh face 3 the need for the diaspora to help 4 the importance of Russia. There was a gathering at a restaurant afterward for those who had made donations and i did not intend to attend until i heard Mushegh's speech which made me want to meet the man and ask him a few questions thus i got there early so i could intercept him when he came in and that is what i did. I expressed my thanks for the wonderful speech he made and the fact that he talked about so many of the serious problems which are usually ignored in the diaspora. I also asked for his opinion on Raffi Hovhanessian and if Raffi was affiliated with ANCA. He said that Raffi is not in any way afiliated with ANCA and that he believes that Raffi does not have the best interest of Armenia and her people at heart. He was very emphatic about that last part. Murad is an elder man and he was tired so i left him alone after our conversation and mingled with my friends in the community(made some new friends to) the rest of the night. It was good to see someone talk about things that really do matter in a realistic manner for a change in a emotionally charged manner with some sense of urgency. This was by far the best commemoration i have witnessed and i hope that what was said that night by one of their own will sink in for the diasporans.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: April 24

So it was that time of the year again when some of us armenians gather to comemorate the genocide which has effected us all so deeply. I have been living in the Detroit area for over 30 years and have seen as many april 24 events come and go and to date they were all amazingly unremarkable as a matter of fact some of them were offensive to put it mildly. I remember one year when one of the clergy said we deserved the genocide because we were not religious enough. I wanted to knock that guys head off but my wife talked me out of it. The disapointing parade of ever changing polititions brought before us to make us believe we have a shot at getting justice became so mundane and procedural and the results we hoped for became ever more out of our reach. We as a diaspora have waisted our resources and time on what is basicaly a show and nothing more for many decades and i expected nothing more then that when i attended the event last night. The evening began with the usual poam-dance-introductions.. then Baroness Cox gave us a rather lively slide show presentation of things that she has accomplished in Kharabagh and talked about how wonderful the people there were. This was new and a welcomed change from the regular even when it was not clear if she was helping us because we were armenians or because we were chrystians. So ok this was nice but then a man named Mushegh Muradyan was introduced and again due to past events my expectations were woefully low of anything significant coming out of this event but then there it was. First the man thanked the commmunity for helping him and his family deal with his daughters cancer(he was very emotional) and then he started talking about why it is important that we remember and commemorate and fight for justice. Its not like he said anything new but it was the way he said it and the way he emphasized that history was on our side and how just our caus is. Ok so far this was already better then any of the previous commemorations but it was going to get a lot better. He went on to talk about how the xxxish lobby was working with the turks and successfully impeding armenian causes on the political front (you could see the frustration on his face). He then went on to say that USA no longer abided by its founding principles and that it was our job as armenian citizens of USA to remind her polititions of what this country stood for. He then emphasized the fact that the diaspora needs to help the state of Armenia and Kharabagh despite their imperfections for it has only been 20 years of independence and we ca
nnot expect perfection when it took this country hundreds of years to get to where it is and he mentioned again that it is very corrupt(the USA). He went on to point out that Armenia's enemies are conspiring to destroy Armenia once and for all ie. the meeting on panturkism held in naxichevan, the huge militery spending by azeris, huge international antiarmenian propoganda..He then stated that he was very much anti russian/communist for decades but that now he realizes that the only reason that Armenia still exists is because the turk is afraiad of Russia. He emphasized Russia like no diasporan ever has and this was indeed a big change for i had long stated the same things but since i was from the soviet union the diasporans figured i was bias and to hear it coming from this guy(first time ever i heard it from any diasporan publicly) i hope made an impression. I liked the fact that this man emphasized 1 justice and history are on our side 2 the danger Armenia and Kharabagh face 3 the need for the diaspora to help 4 the importance of Russia. There was a gathering at a restaurant afterward for those who had made donations and i did not intend to attend until i heard Mushegh's speech which made me want to meet the man and ask him a few questions thus i got there early so i could intercept him when he came in and that is what i did. I expressed my thanks for the wonderful speech he made and the fact that he talked about so many of the serious problems which are usually ignored in the diaspora. I also asked for his opinion on Raffi Hovhanessian and if Raffi was affiliated with ANCA. He said that Raffi is not in any way afiliated with ANCA and that he believes that Raffi does not have the best interest of Armenia and her people at heart. He was very emphatic about that last part. Murad is an elder man and he was tired so i left him alone after our conversation and mingled with my friends in the community(made some new friends to) the rest of the night. It was good to see someone talk about things that really do matter in a realistic manner for a change in a emotionally charged manner with some sense of urgency. This was by far the best commemoration i have witnessed and i hope that what was said that night by one of their own will sink in for the diasporans.

Once again you try to corrupt the meaning of past events and hijack them to serve your own short term politics.

"Baroness Cox gave us a rather lively slide show presentation of things that she has accomplished in Kharabagh and talked about how wonderful the people there were. This was new and a welcomed change from the regular even when it was not clear if she was helping us because we were armenians or because we were chrystians." Did it occur to you that perhaps she was helping simply because she believes it is the right thing to do? Or is that a concept just too alien?

"He then went on to say that USA no longer abided by its founding principles and that it was our job as armenian citizens of USA to remind her polititions of what this country stood for." So, America can kill hundreds of thousands in Iraq, crush human rights everywhere, engineer chaos across the world, murders innocent civilians at will by remote control - but it only reaches the "no longer abiding by its founding principles" stage when it ignores the demands of some Armenians. Someone needs to get a f-ing sense of proportion! If Armenians were to start to feel greater empathy with the rest of the world and not be so insular, then maybe the rest of the world will start to feel greater empathy with Armenia.

[Haykakan]

Re: April 24

"Did it occur to you that perhaps she was helping simply because she believes it is the right thing to do? Or is that a concept just too alien? "
I never said nor implied that not to be the case.

"If Armenians were to start to feel greater empathy with the rest of the world and not be so insular, then maybe the rest of the world will start to feel greater empathy with Armenia."
I do not understand where you get your presuptions. Look at the threads in this forum and observe the sympathy twords palastinians , syryans, and others. Plenty armenians were against the Iraq war to. You again generalize and again that destroys you argument. Sure there are plenty of people who do not care about others but that is true for any nation.
As for corrupting the meaning of past events - i do not follow you there. I assume you are talking about Raffi and again this was a question i asked and the answer he gave me was what i reported here. This subject seems pretty important to me and many others so i am not sure how this corrupts anything. Politics and polititions is what got us killed before and i want to make sure it does not happen again.

[Haykakan]

Re: April 24

YEREVAN SLAMS DAVUTOGLU

http://asbarez.com/117222/yerevan-slams-davutoglu/

Monday, December 9th, 2013

Armenian Foreign Minister Eduard Nalbandian and his Turkish counterpart
Ahmet Davutoglu shake hands after signing the dangerous Protocols in
Zurich in 2009

Armenia's Deputy Foreign Minister says Davutoglu should visit
Dzidzernagapert instead of making divisive statements.

YEREVAN-The Armenian government slammed Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet
Davutoglu for undermining the peace process in the South Caucasus by
continuing to precondition the resolution of the Karabakh conflict
with normalizing of Turkey-Armenia relations.

Armenia's Deputy Foreign Minister Savarsh Kocharyan responded to
Davutoglu, who announced last week that he would visit Yerevan for the
December 12 meeting of the Black Sea Economic Cooperation Organization
and hinted, over the weekend, that he might broach Turkey-Armenia
relations while in Yerevan.

"Instead of making provocative statements, the Turkish foreign minister
would do right by taking the chance to visit the Armenian Genocide
Memorial to pay tribute to the memory of the [Armenian Genocide]
victims," Kocharyan told Armenpress Saturday.

"Turkey can contribute to the normalization of relations with
Armenia by ratifying and implementing, without any preconditions,
the Armenian-Turkish Protocols," added Kocharyan

"If Turkey wishes to further accelerate the establishment of civilized
relations between the countries of the region, it must recognize the
Armenian Genocide perpetrated by the Ottoman Empire, and open the
Armenian-Turkish border which it closed," added Kocharyan stated.

Kocharyan's comments came in response to Turkish press reports
indicating that while in Armenia, Davutoglu would propose the opening
of the Armenian-Turkish border if Armenia "cede(s) from at least
two of the seven regions Armenia has been occupying since 1993,"
reported the Hurriyet Daily News.

While there has been no official indication about a meeting between
Dovutoglu and Armenia's Foreign Minister Eduard Nalbandian, the
Turkish foreign ministry told Hurriyet that such a meeting is
"highly possible."

Turkey has refused to ratify the dangerous Turkey-Armenia protocols,
which were signed in 2009, saying that Turkey will sign the accord
only after the resolution of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, in favor
of Azerbaijan.

Davutoglu recently re-visited the Turkey-Armenia normalizations
process, when in October he visited Switzerland and brought up the
matter with Swiss leaders.

"We are now looking to develop it and advance with creative ideas and
new ways of thinking. We will increase our works in the coming period.

When relations between Turkey and Armenia are normalized, most of
the issues between Azerbaijan and Armenia will also be within the
framework of a solution," Davutoglu said during his visit to Bern
in October, when he also sought Switzerland's support for steps in
developing ties with Armenia.

Protest awaits Davutoglu

Protests Awaits Davutoglu The Armenian Revolutionary Federation
Nigol Aghabalian Student Organization announced that it would protest
Davutoglu's visit to Armenia Thursday.

The organization's chairman Gerasim Vardanyan said the protesters
will demand recognition of the Armenian Genocide and reparations to
its victims.

"One thing is clear," said Vardanyan, "We will remind Turkey, once
again, that owes a debt to Armenia and that there are unresolved
issues."

ANCA Issues Statement on Davutoglu Visit Armenian National Committee
of America Executive Director Aram Hamparian issued the following
statement Friday on Davutolglu's visit.

Turkish Foreign Minister Davutoglu's upcoming visit to Armenia for
a December 12th regional conference shines a spotlight on Ankara's
continued use of its Protocols to escape liability for mass murder,
vast theft, and the wholesale dispossession of a nation of its
ancestral homeland.

The Armenian nation and all peoples should use this visit by a
leading official of a perpetrator state to the land of its surviving
victims to strengthen our call for a truthful, just, and comprehensive
international resolution of the Armenian Genocide. In coming to terms
with its responsibilities, Turkey must not only end its denials and
stop its obstruction of justice, but also cease its century-long policy
of anti-Armenian aggression, strangulation, and coercion rooted in
the legacy of this still unpunished crime.

The United States and our partners in the international community,
rather than abetting Ankara by arm-twisting Yerevan into a politically
untenable and morally unacceptable policy of "normalization without
justice," should be pressing Turkey to forfeit its genocidal gains,
to fully return all it has stolen, and to fairly compensate the
Armenian nation for its vast and ongoing losses.

The Armenian Genocide-an act of premeditated mass murder and national
dispossession-is not a bilateral "conflict" to be reconciled, but
rather an ongoing international crime that all nations, not Armenia
alone, have a moral and legal responsibility to punish.

[Artashes]

Re: April 24

So the hominoids (turks) are planning to celebrate their victory at Gallipoli on April 24th in an attempt to obfuscate their planned GENOCIDE of the Armenian people that is brought to remembrance every April 24th.

---------------------------------------------------
What do you think about this for an idea?
We counter that by displaying the names and numbers of those that were killed by the foul turks at Gallipoli .
We point out that the hominoids (turks) are celebrating the defeat of the west. And the killing of their lost ones.
Hooray, the monkey a$s turks killed your young men. That's what they are celebrating. And they are doing that to divert yor attention & the worlds attention from the well documented 1st genocide of the 20th century.
The Armenian genocide.
Smart monkey, smart monkey.
Dumb monkey a$s hominoids (Turks).

[Artashes]

Re: April 24

So the hominoids (turks) are planning to celebrate their victory at Gallipoli on April 24th in an attempt to obfuscate their planned GENOCIDE of the Armenian people that is brought to remembrance every April 24th.

---------------------------------------------------
What do you think about this for an idea?
We counter that by displaying the names and numbers of those that were killed by the foul turks at Gallipoli .
We point out that the hominoids (turks) are celebrating the defeat of the west. And the killing of their lost ones.
Hooray, the monkey a$s turks killed your young men. That's what they are celebrating. And they are doing that to divert yor attention & the worlds attention from the well documented 1st genocide of the 20th century.
The Armenian genocide.
Smart monkey, smart monkey.
Dumb monkey a$s hominoids (Turks).

Maybe we could suggest to the allied forces that they join with the turks (hominoids) in their celebration of their defeat.
Maybe we could suggest that they could say.... We got our asses kicked & and our young men killed
But at least we didn't get genocided like the Armenians.
Maybe that will console them greed ridden conniving capitalist sellouts.
Artashes

[Haykakan]

Re: April 24

It saddens me that non of the genocide victims saw justice done and we probably never will see it.


LAST BAY AREA ARMENIAN GENOCIDE SURVIVOR DIES

http://asbarez.com/120752/last-bay-area-armenian-genocide-survivor-dies/

Tuesday, March 18th, 2014

Takouhie Keshishian

SAN FRANCISCO--The last known Armenian Genocide survivor in the San
Francisco Bay Area has died. Takouhie Keshishian, age 99, passed away
peacefully on February 26th. She was one of the last living survivors
of the 20th century's first systematic genocide, perpetrated by the
Ottoman Turkish government against its Armenian subjects, 1915 -1923,
during which more than half of the Armenian population living on
its ancient homeland was killed, and their personal and community
properties seized.

Takouhie had often expressed her wish that the Turkish government
and the U.S. Congress recognize the Armenian Genocide. She has been
honored as a source of strength and voice of justice at Bay Area
Armenian Genocide commemorative events, held at the historic Mt.

Davidson Cross in San Francisco. In a video message to the Armenian
community, Keshishian had a simple yet powerful message: "We must
never forget what Turkey did. . . We must always remember."

Takouhie is survived by 6 children, 16 grandchildren, and 24
great-grandchildren. Funeral services and interment took place on
Saturday, March 8, 2014, at 11:00 AM, at Cypress Lawn, 1370 El Camino
Real, Colma CA.

California Lt. Governor Gavin Newsom sent a condolence letter to the
Keshishian Family. "She was a leader in every sense of the word"
stated Lt. Governor Newsom. "Her leadership touched her family,
friends, community, and demonstrates that there are no obstacles in
life that cannot be overcome."

Congresswoman Jackie Kanchelian Speier issued a statement and had
a flag flown at the US Capitol in memory of Takouhi Keshishian. "I
share with Takouhie her wish that the Turkish government and the U.S.

Congress recognize the Armenian Genocide" stated Rep. Speier. "I have
introduced legislation to that effect since 2008 and will continue
to do so until it passes in the Congress."

"Considering the traumatic experiences she had endured, our grandmother
had such a great, positive spirit which we loved so much.

She taught us a lot about life and values," said Ara Makasdjian,
Keshishian's grandson and ANCA- San Francisco Bay Area Board Member.

Takouhie was born in the city of Adana, Turkey, on February 14, 1915.

Her mother, Marie, was born in the village of Missis, outside of
Adana. When the massacres against Armenians in that region were
unleashed by the Turkish Sultan in 1909, Marie's entire family was
murdered, and her village, destroyed. A kind neighbor saved Marie,
keeping her hidden and safe, until she could make her way to Adana,
where she later gave birth to Takouhie.

Takouhie never knew her father. When she was two months old, he fled
the Turkish army into Syria. (Armenian men were being conscripted into
segregated, un-armed sections of the army, and later murdered). During
his flight, disguised as a Kurd, he saw many Armenians on forced
death marches, including his own sister and her family. He contracted
Typhoid and never returned.

Takouhie's mother Marie, was married off to another man and as a
child, Takouhie was told that this man was her father who had come
back from the army. In addition to her eldest son and Takouhie,
Marie also later gave birth to more two sons and a daughter.

In 1921, under the threat of continuing massacres, the family was
able to leave Adana, travelling by boat to Tripoli, Lebanon. When the
family arrived in Lebanon, their very poor condition was exacerbated
by the fact they didn't know the language. Takouhie's stepfather died
of food poisoning. Instead of going to school, Takouhie cared for
her younger siblings while her mother worked to support them. Each
evening, Takouhie joined her mother in creating embroidery pieces,
which her mother sold for income the follow day.

Takouhie married Antranig Keshishian in the 1930's, and they had 6
children, 5 girls and a boy - Shake, Loucine, Anahid, Dikran, Sossi,
and Sona.

After years of living through the devastating Lebanese civil war,
several of her children moved to the Bay Area, and Takouhie joined them
in 1987. In her last years, she was a resident of Pacifica, California.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: April 24

Maybe we could suggest to the allied forces that they join with the turks (hominoids) in their celebration of their defeat.
Maybe we could suggest that they could say.... We got our asses kicked & and our young men killed
But at least we didn't get genocided like the Armenians.
Maybe that will console them greed ridden conniving capitalist sellouts.
Artashes

I somehow missed this example of the forum's most charming Armenian being his typical charming self.

Maybe he should get together with that other slimeball, the one who lives in Australia, and together tell Australians what proper Armenians really think of Australians. And of course also tell those same Australians that they are still expected to do whatever Armenians want whenever Armenians want it.

[Haykakan]

Re: April 24

Here is a great statement by a Turkish human rights group. http://asbarez.com/122221/turkish-ri...nize-genocide/
Yes these people are by far in the minority but it shows how now as it was back then that not all Turks are evil.
As for this years commemoration here we showed again that we have not learned much. Last year some things were said that gave me hope about a shift in our policies here in the diaspora but we heard non of it this time around. Instead we got a show about the Wilsonian agreement and the Treaty of Lausanne.. and we also got a frank admission from the ANCA that our cause is dwarfed by our opponents in the U.S. political system where even the mildest reaching out is met with scorn regarding our issues. I have lived in this Armenian community for well over 30 years and have been attending April 24 commemorations pretty much every year and it is amazing to note how much the power of the diaspora has decreased over the years regarding U.S. politics. Now you may not hear it from the ANCA which like to pat itself on the back rather then recognize the facts but just looking at who was at the commemoration was telling enough. There were secraterys from the governors office, from the senators office but none of them were present and this is not how things used to be...we had senators and congressmen present before and they would make addresses, take our money and then forget about us but now they don't even bother doing that anymore instead they send some intern with a letter. Another disheartening thing that was so obviously wrong was that this year the commemoration was done on a partisan bases along the lines of party and church affiliation...and this is a great reflection of the diaspora's lack of unity even on this issue. The Armenian community here has been my home for decades and these people are my friends and family but despite some glimmers of hope our community here is weakening and is increasingly ineffective when it comes to pursuing our causes. If we Armenians cannot come together on April 24 and commemorate our shared grief together then what can we do as a people?

[Haykakan]

Re: April 24

ERDOGAN TELLS CHARLIE ROSE THERE WAS NO GENOCIDE

Tuesday, April 29th, 2014

by Ara Khachatourian

Charlie Rose interviews Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan last week

On Sunday's edition of Charlie Rose, the veteran reporter asked Turkish
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who on April 23 issued a statement
offering condolences to the grandchildren of what he termed Armenians
who suffered during the Ottoman Empire, whether the Turkish Prime
Minister would use the word Genocide in describing the events of 1915.

Erdogan's response: "If such a Genocide occurred would there have
been any Armenians living in this country?"

Throughout the portion of the interview dedicated to the Armenian
issue, Erdogan reiterated the reality that there were Armenians
living in Turkey, citing that as proof of his continued denial of
the Armenian Genocide.

He also went on to claim that Turkey "would never a turn a blind
eye" to Genocide, as the Turkish people view that as a crime against
humanity.

After reiterating the long-standing Turkish position to establish a
commission to study the Armenian Genocide, Erdogan also blamed the
Armenian Diaspora for "exploiting the situation," saying that the
Diaspora's efforts should be rejected.

Interestingly, Rose followed up his questions about the Armenian
Genocide with one that focused on an apology offered to Erdogan by
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netenyahu and Turkey's belief that
it deserves compensation from Israel for the Mavi Marmara incident.

Erdogan said that Turkey should be compensated as a pre-condition to
establishing normal diplomatic relations with Israel.

Watch the entire interview and read below a transcription of the
portion about the Armenian Genocide.

Charlie Rose: This has been an important week for you because of the
statement you made on Armenia.

Recep Tayyip Erdogan: This has been something I have been saying for
a long time. Every time I said this I said they were ottoman citizens.

There were Armenians and people belonging to other ethnicities who
died in many events. And, I always said that it is very natural for all
ethnicities to remember their suffering and we have to respect that. We
have in our territory many Armenian citizens, some who have passports
and some don't. There are some who live here without passports and
we do not send those people away. Those Armenian continue to live
here. We also respect the belief and freedom of thoughts of Armenians
and we will continue to protect those rights.

C.R.: They would obviously like you to use the word Genocide. Is
it possible for the prime minister of Turkey to characterize it
as Genocide?

R.T.E.: It would not be possible, because if such a Genocide occurred
would there have been any Armenians living in this country?

We have citizens here who have passports and also Armenians who have
left Armenia. We don't exclude them. We don't send them back. They
make a living in our country and they continue to live in our country.

We are a people who see Genocide as a crime against humanity. We would
never turn a blind eye to such action. And, we always say this is a
responsibility for historians. Our archives are open and historians
can come and look at our archives. We have military archives as well.

If Armenia has archives they can open theirs and if third countries
have documents, they too could make them available and we can establish
a commission made up of historians and legal experts and political
scientists who can them look at those documents and they can then
come up with a report and we can all respect those reports.

The [Armenian] Diaspora is exploiting that situation and I don't
think we should accept that. There is no reason why we should have
any doubt or suspicion. That should not be the case and no one has
the right to say that.

C.R.: But you are saying we have to recognize their suffering... and
is there an apology there?

R.T.E.: These are our ancestors. This is not something that happened
during the Republic of Turkey. This was during the Ottoman Empire.

These are events that happened during migration and documents are very
interesting. If the documents show that our ancestors made a mistake...

if the historians can show that then we would pay whatever the
consequence of that is.

http://asbarez.com/122412/erdogan-tells-charlie-rose-there-was-no-genocide/