All things related to Hryastan

[Davo88]

Re: All things related to Hryastan

By saying this you assume that the recognition will never bear fruit one day.

And aren't you in the diaspora yourself?

[Muhaha]

Re: All things related to Hryastan

Why isn't the genocide recognition a "big deal"? It is an imperative for Armenians in the diaspora, notably that of the United States, to get it recognized.

I know it's imperative for the Diaspora, which is why the Diaspora is retarded. Genocide Recognition isn't going to do anything for us, it's a giant hole to throw money into. Armenians have MUCH bigger problems to spend our few resources on. Imagine how much money, time and effort is spent towards Recognition....Now imagine using that money, time, and effort to build hospitals, maternity clinics, schools, roads, and infrastructure IN ARMENIA. Which option sounds like it's going to bear more fruit for Armenians? Genocide Recognition is just a convenient way for the useless Diaspora to feel Armenian. God forbid they're asked to do anything more than just wear the tri-color on the 24th.

[Davo88]

Re: All things related to Hryastan

Why isn't the genocide recognition a "big deal"? It is an imperative for Armenians in the diaspora, notably that of the United States, to get it recognized.

[Muhaha]

Re: All things related to Hryastan

It is not us that brought up the Armenian genocide recognition argument, it is the Israelis and Israeli supporters themselves.

I'm not saying who brought it up now, I'm saying who made a big deal about it in the past.

[Davo88]

Re: All things related to Hryastan

It is not us that brought up the Armenian genocide recognition argument, it is the Israelis and Israeli supporters themselves.

[Muhaha]

Re: All things related to Hryastan

Because of stupid Armenians who have cared so much about and raised such a ruckus over this non-significant recognition factor....We're now being used as tools in a political war between xxxs & Turks. It's an especially non-ideal situation since relations between Israel and Turkey will be fine any day now and we'll all just come out looking like a used condom after a frat party. We've got a smart community don't we?

[Haykakan]

Re: All things related to Hryastan

http://palestinenote.com/cs/blogs/blogs/archive/2010/06/10/we-now-hate-turkey-so-the-armenian-genocide-did-happen.aspx

10 Jun 2010 3:33 PM
By Moshe Yaroni
We now hate Turkey, So the Armenian genocide DID happen

Spencer Ackerman has an excellent and succinct post
[http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2...r-you-people/]
on the hypocrisy abounding now that the American xxxish leadership has
decided Turkey is an enemy, so they have stopped lobbying against
recognition of the Armenian genocide.

He's nicer about it than I am.

This has long been something I've found truly disgusting, and an
example of how when it comes to a choice between being a xxx and
marching lock-step with Israel, the pro-Israel xxxish forces don't
even blink and abandon Judaism, our community and our heritage without
a second thought.

WE ARE xxxS!!! HOW CAN WE DENY A GENOCIDE FOR CYNICAL POLITICAL PURPOSES???

And can anyone seriously doubt that such is exactly what happened?

This hypocrisy is not merely academic, now that AIPAC's dissembling on
behalf of Turkey has come to an end. It is that same trait that is on
display on a daily basis in the denial of suffering in Gaza.

Today, Israel let snack foods and soda into Gaza. What, is there
suddenly nothing to fear from Hamas' deadly Pringles and Coke Bomb? I
mean, seriously, if this is not petty cruelty beyond belief, what is?
Or maybe it was that a leading Senator had to scream to force Israel
to allow pasta into Gaza last year or that such things as lentils,
packaged hummus and cinnamon are still items of controversy.

It isn't only that racists like Caroline Glick are laughing about the
suffering of innocents in Gaza. No, in a much more concrete way, it is
that Israel and those here that oppose de facto the two-state solution
(despite their claims to the contrary, which generally have as much
substance as their former defense of Turkey's action nearly a century
ago did) are ona campaign of denial of suffering.

There is the convenience of the term "humanitarian crisis" which
generally conjures images of mass starvation and high death tolls.
Since that's not happening in Gaza, this allows Israel to deny with a
certain technical validity. But, as I and many other have detailed,
there's a huge amount of suffering, and it is being accompanied by a
campaign of denial.

The same kind these same people once waged on behalf of the Turks.

[Haykakan]

Re: All things related to Hryastan

The world needs to decide already who they're going to support once and for all, no toeing the line bs. If a nation says they support Israel, then let them support them 150% of the way once and for all, and if they disagree with them at all, then let them support the Palestinians. The world should not have to suffer through so much for the sake of two insignificant groups of peoples on such an insignificant stretch of land.

Personally I side with Israel, b/c while I do believe what they're doing with blockade is wrong on almost every level, I believe that it'll be easier to put and end to the conflict once and for all if Israel wins. Israel holds all the cards, it and the world are ready to work towards a Palestinian state, but first the Palestinians have to accept that the borders are drawn and there's nothing they can do about it. Palestine is from now on and forever will be territories of Gaza and the West Bank. If a Palestinian should desire to live in a region of the entity defined as Israel, the Palestinians are just gonna have to make peace with them and then move to Israel legally.


Who knows, maybe if things cool down and there's a peace between the two, in a few generations an Israeli Arab could be elected to the knesset or something, and while it sounds naive, look at the USA, Michelle Obama is a descendant of slaves, would her ancestors have ever thought that one of their descendants would be first lady and live in a country with second highest amount of interracial marriages?



My plan B is to just give the West Bank to Jordan, and Gaza to Egypt. There are some peoples who will just never be fit to rule themselves, even if they get everything they want. But since Palestinians can't stand to be under the rule of the Israelis, then let them be under the rule of their Muslim Arab brethren

There are some glaring errors in the assuptions you make here, Your assuption that Isreal is ok with any form of a Palastinian state is flat out wrong because even when their government was ready to make peace(it only happened once) the zionists killed their own president and ended any hope of such peace. Another misconception you stated is that the Palastinians " There are some peoples who will just never be fit to rule themselves, even if they get everything they want." this is exactly what the western zionist controlled media has been spreading and you sir bought it hook, line , sinker and all. Palastinians are not anymore dumb or unruly then anyone else thus they do not have a handicap for self rule and have actually successfully ruled themselves many hundreds of years more then the xxxs have ruled themselves. Also like when did they exactly get "everything they want"? Again i do not blame those living in the west for having these misconseptions because they are spoonfed lies everyday on a regular basis, and i know this to be true because i grew up in the west and was fed the same bs. Some people are ok with going along with the official stance even if that stance is totally wrong but some like myself cant stand hypocracy and refuse to just shut up and let the lies continue. It is very hard to get a accurate picture of the world growing up in the west which ironicaly enoughf reminds me of the soviet era when people in the soviet union had the same problem and thought the west was the promised land they had always dreamed of.

[KanadaHye]

Re: All things related to Hryastan

This article was back in March but I think it makes some good points. I'll paste the important parts:

But here is where it gets really interesting. The following comes from the j3wish Telegraphic Agency, the Associated Press of the j3wish world. JTA writes:

In the past, the pro-Israel community [i.e. the Israel lobby] , has lobbied hard against previous attempts to pass similar resolutions, citing warnings from Turkish officials that it could harm the alliance not only with the United States but with Israel -- although Israel has always tried to avoid mentioning the World War I-era genocide.

In the last year or so, however, officials of American pro-Israel groups have said that while they will not support new resolutions, they will no longer oppose them, citing Turkey's heightened rhetorical attacks on Israel and a flourishing of outright anti-Semitism the government has done little to stem.

That has lifted the fetters for lawmakers like Berman (Chairman Howard Berman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee) , who had been loath to abet in the denial of a genocide; Berman and a host of other members of the House's unofficial xxxish caucus have signed on as co-sponsors.

That battle is now being carried to Washington. The Israelis are trying to teach the Turks a lesson. If the Armenian resolution passes both houses and goes into effect, it will not be out of some newfound compassion for the victims of the Armenian genocide and their descendants, but to send a message to Turkey: if you mess with Israel, its lobby will make Turkey pay a price in Washington.

And, just maybe, the United States will pay it too.

Here is the link to the article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mj-ros..._b_487380.html

[Alexandros]

Re: All things related to Hryastan


**FILE** House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (The Washington Times)


American Je_wish community ends support of Turkish interests on Hill

By Eli Lake

8:54 p.m., Tuesday, June 8, 2010

In October 2000, the government of Turkey had a problem.

House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert had promised to bring a resolution commemorating the Armenian genocide to the floor for a vote, a move that Ankara said would be a slap in the face to a NATO ally.

The Turks called up Keith Weissman, a senior researcher from the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, and asked him to intervene.

Mr. Weissman said in an interview this week that AIPAC lit up the phones and managed at the last minute — with the help of the State Department — to persuade President Clinton himself to write a letter to Mr. Hastert saying a vote on the resolution would cause strategic damage to U.S. interests.

The last-minute push worked. Mr. Hastert removed the resolution from the floor, and the full Congress has yet to take up the matter to this day.

But the American Je_wish community is no longer helping Turkey, after a tumultuous deterioration of ties between Israel and Turkey in the past four years. The government in Ankara last week decried a botched Israeli raid on a Turkish aid flotilla, which claimed at least nine lives, as an act of "state terror."

In some ways, the Memorial Day flotilla affair marks an end of Israel's more than 20-year strategic alliance with Turkey, and the resulting support from the pro-Israel lobby in Washington.

Turkey, which has a secular constitution, was the first Muslim state to recognize Israel, in 1949. Israel has historically sought to form alliances with countries on the periphery of the Arab world such as Turkey, Iran and Ethiopia.

In 1982, when Israel invaded southern Lebanon, its army destroyed training camps affiliated with the Armenian Secret Army for the Liberation of Armenia, a terrorist organization responsible for the slayings of Turkish diplomats.

Turkey rewarded Israel's counterterrorism operations with increased intelligence ties. The intelligence relationship soon blossomed into full ambassadorial relations, and increased commercial trade and closer military cooperation. In exchange for arms sales from Israel, Turkey allowed the Israeli air force to use Anatolian airspace for training purposes.

The relationship began to sour in the early 2000s with the election of the Justice and Development Party (AKP in Turkish), which is based on elements of parties that had been banned for Islamism.

Malcolm Hoenlein, the executive vice chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Je_wish Organizations, said, "It's not completely over. There are still close ties between many in Turkey and the community and there are still a lot of common interests."

But Mr. Hoenlein added, "The Turks happen to have a government that is extremist, that has chosen a path that is violative of the past relationship. It has been a steady process, not just related to the most recent incident. This began with the election of this Islamist government in 2002."

Barry Jacobs, the American Je_wish Committee's former director of strategic studies in the office of government and international affairs, also noted Turkey's critical stance toward Israel's 2006 invasion of southern Lebanon to root out Hezbollah terrorists attacking the Je_wish state.

"This started in 2006 when I remember one Israeli diplomat complained that Turkish support for Hezbollah had 'out-Arabed the Arabs,'" Mr. Jacobs said, adding that Turkey's unconditional support for Hamas since 2007, combined with Je_wish discomfort with defending the Turks on the Armenian issue, led to a dampening of support.

"The major Je_wish organizations decided in 2008 that the question of the Armenian genocide resolution was so sensitive we would no longer take public and private positions to oppose it," Mr. Jacobs said.

Abe Foxman, the national director of the Anti-Defamation League, said he thinks the Turks made a strategic decision to break with Israel during the Gaza war. He pointed to a heated exchange in 2009 at the annual World Economic Forum meeting in Davos, Switzerland, when Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan walked out of a session with Israeli President Shimon Peres, telling him: "When it comes to killing, you know well how to kill."

"We saw things deteriorating but it did not surface publicly until Davos," Mr. Foxman said. "Until then, the trade continued, the military continued. It did not happen till the Gaza war. My feeling is that Turkey made a geopolitical decision before, but it needed an excuse to turn so dramatically."

Mr. Jacobs and Mr. Weissman were in some ways the architects of the Je_wish community's support for Turkey in Washington that began at the end of the Cold War. Both men led delegations of Je_wish community leaders to Istanbul and Ankara. Mr. Weissman said AIPAC's leaders even offered training to Turkish Americans on how to establish a successful lobby.

In Congress, the Je_wish organizations lobbied for an oil pipeline from the Azerbaijani capital of Baku to the Turkish Mediterranean port of Ceyhan, a pipeline that bypasses Turkey's rival Armenia entirely. The Je_wish lobby in Washington helped protect U.S. arms sales to Turkey, on which the Greek lobby often tried to block or impose conditions.

Henri Barkey, a former State Department Turkey analyst and senior associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington, said, "The most important element of the relationship with Israel for the Turks in the late 1980s was improving relations with the United States through the American Je_wish community."

In the 1980s, Turkey often lost major fights in Congress to the Greek and Armenian lobbies.

"It made Turkey's strategic value to the United States more visible and understandable when supporters of Israel would go to bat for them," said Douglas J. Feith, a former undersecretary of defense for policy who represented Turkey when he was out of government in the early 1990s. "All of the sudden, you not only had strong support for Turkey in elements of the executive branch, you also had then some serious debate on [Capitol Hill] in favor of Turkey as well."

Today, far from being an asset for Turkey, the American Je_wish community appears to becoming a potent foe of Turkish interests in Washington.

On Tuesday for example, the Anti-Defamation League issued a press release calling on the State Department to designate the IHH, the Turkish charity that helped organize the free-Gaza flotilla as a foreign terrorist organization. In Turkey, the IHH has been praised as a group of peace activists and humanitarians.

"In terms of the Je_wish community and Israel, neither one of us wants to throw it away and hope it is not over," Mr. Foxman said. "But every day there is another provocation. Every day the Turkish government goes out of its way to be insulting to Israel and another link is broken."

Morris Amitay, a former executive director of AIPAC who has also represented Turkey, was more blunt.

"If someone asked me now if I would try to protect Turkey in Congress, my response would be, 'You've got to be kidding,'" he said.

The liberal Je_wish organizations J Street and Americans for Peace Now declined to comment on the deterioration of Israeli-Turkish ties in Washington.

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