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Switzerland voted to ban the building of Minarets

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  • Eddo211
    replied
    Re: Switzerland voted to ban the building of Minarets

    Swiss ban on minarets was a vote for tolerance and inclusion




    The Swiss vote highlights the debate on Islam as a set of political and collectivist ideas, not a rejection of Muslims.

    By Ayaan Hirsi Ali
    from the December 5, 2009 edition

    Washington - The recent Swiss referendum that bans construction of minarets has caused controversy across the world. There are two ways to interpret the vote. First, as a rejection of political Islam, not a rejection of Muslims. In this sense it was a vote for tolerance and inclusion, which political Islam rejects. Second, the vote was a revelation of the big gap between how the Swiss people and the Swiss elite judge political Islam.

    In the battle of ideas, symbols are important.

    What if the Swiss voters were asked in a referendum to ban the building of an equilateral cross with its arms bent at right angles as a symbol of the belief of a small minority? Or imagine a referendum on building towers topped with a hammer and sickle – another symbol dear to the hearts of a very small minority in Switzerland.

    Political ideas have symbols: A swastika, a hammer and sickle, a minaret, a crescent with a star in the middle (usually on top of a minaret) all represent a collectivist political theory of supremacy by one group over all others.

    On controversial issues, the Swiss listen to debate, read newspapers, and otherwise investigate when they make up their minds for a vote.

    What Europeans are finding out about Islam as they investigate is that it is more than just a religion. Islam offers not only a spiritual framework for dealing with such human questions as birth, death, and what ought to come after this world; it prescribes a way of life.

    Islam is an idea about how society should be organized: the individual's relationship to the state; that the relationship between men and women; rules for the interaction between believers and unbelievers; how to enforce such rules; and why a government under Islam is better than a government founded on other ideas. These political ideas of Islam have their symbols: the minaret, the crescent; the head scarf, and the sword.

    The minaret is a symbol of Islamist supremacy, a token of domination that came to symbolize Islamic conquest. It was introduced decades after the founding of Islam.

    In Europe, as in other places in the world where Muslims settle, the places of worship are simple at first. All that a Muslim needs to fulfill the obligation of prayer is a compass to indicate the direction of Mecca, water for ablution, a clean prayer mat, and a way of telling the time so as to pray five times a day in the allocated period.

    The construction of large mosques with extremely tall towers that cost millions of dollars to erect are considered only after the demography of Muslims becomes significant.

    The mosque evolves from a prayer house to a political center.

    Imams can then preach a message of self-segregation and a bold rejection of the ways of the non-Muslims.

    Men and women are separated; gays, apostates and xxxs are openly condemned; and believers organize around political goals that call for the introduction of forms of sharia (Islamic) law, starting with family law.

    This is the trend we have seen in Europe, and also in other countries where Muslims have settled. None of those Western academics, diplomats, and politicians who condemn the Swiss vote to ban the minaret address, let alone dispute, these facts.

    In their response to the presence of Islam in their midst, Europeans have developed what one can discern as roughly two competing views. The first view emphasizes accuracy. Is it accurate to equate political symbols like those used by Communists and Nazis with a religious symbol like the minaret and its accessories of crescent and star; the uniforms of the Third Reich with the burqa and beards of current Islamists?

    If it is accurate, then Islam, as a political movement, should be rejected on the basis of its own bigotry. In this view, Muslims should not be rejected as residents or citizens. The objection is to practices that are justified in the name of Islam, like honor killings, jihad, the we-versus-they perspective, the self-segregation. In short, Islamist supremacy.

    The second view refuses to equate political symbols of various forms of white fascism with the symbols of a religion. In this school of thought, Islamic Scripture is compared to Christian and xxxish Scripture. Those who reason from this perspective preach pragmatism. According to them, the key to the assimilation of Muslims is dialogue. They are prepared to appease some of the demands that Muslim minorities make in the hope that one day their attachment to radical Scripture will wear off like that of Christian and xxxish peoples.

    These two contrasting perspectives correspond to two quite distinct groups in Europe. The first are mainly the working class. The second are the classes that George Orwell described as "indeterminate." Cosmopolitan in outlook, they include diplomats, businesspeople, mainstream politicians, and journalists. They are well versed in globalization and tend to focus on the international image of their respective countries. With every conflict between Islam and the West, they emphasize the possible backlash from Muslim countries and how that will affect the image of their country.

    By contrast, those who reject the ideas and practices of political Islam are in touch with Muslims on a local level. They have been asked to accept Muslim immigrants as neighbors, classmates, colleagues – they are what Americans would refer to as Main Street. Here is the great paradox of today's Europe: that the working class, who voted for generations for the left, now find themselves voting for right-wing parties because they feel that the social democratic parties are out of touch.

    The pragmatists, most of whom are power holders, are partially right when they insist that the integration of Muslims will take a very long time. Their calls for dialogue are sensible. But as long as they do not engage Muslims to make a choice between the values of the countries that they have come to and those of the countries they left, they will find themselves faced with more surprises. And this is what the Swiss vote shows us. This is a confrontation between local, working-class voters (and some middle-class feminists) and Muslim immigrant newcomers who feel that they are entitled, not only to practice their religion, but also to replace the local political order with that of their own.

    Look carefully at the reactions of the Swiss, EU and UN elites. The Swiss government is embarrassed by the outcome of the vote. The Swedes, who are currently chairing EU meetings, have condemned the Swiss vote as intolerant and xenophobic. It is remarkable that the Swedish foreign minister, Carl Bildt, said in public that the Swiss vote is a poor act of diplomacy. What he overlooks is that this is a discussion of Islam as a domestic issue. It has nothing to do with foreign policy.

    The Swiss vote highlights the debate on Islam as a domestic issue in Europe. That is, Islam as a set of political and collectivist ideas. Native Europeans have been asked over and over again by their leaders to be tolerant and accepting of Muslims. They have done that. And that can be measured a) by the amount of taxpayer money that is invested in healthcare, housing, education, and welfare for Muslims and b) the hundreds of thousands of Muslims who are knocking on the doors of Europe to be admitted. If those people who cry that Europe is intolerant are right, if there was, indeed, xenophobia and a rejection of Muslims, then we would have observed the reverse. There would have been an exodus of Muslims out of Europe.

    There is indeed a wider international confrontation between Islam and the West. The Iraq and Afghan wars are part of that, not to mention the ongoing struggle between Israelis and Palestinians and the nuclear ambitions of Iran. That confrontation should never be confused with the local problem of absorbing those Muslims who have been permitted to become permanent residents and citizens into European societies.

    The Swiss vote highlights the debate on Islam as a set of political and collectivist ideas, not a rejection of Muslims.

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  • freakyfreaky
    replied
    Re: Switzerland voted to ban the building of Minarets

    Originally posted by ArmSurvival View Post
    If you want democracy, you have to live with its decisions. The Swiss simply do not want their landscape changed.
    Your definition of democracy is myopic. Cannot have one without equality and recognition of certain freedoms and liberties. Your definition appears to cloak tyranny in democractic cloth.

    Leave a comment:


  • ArmSurvival
    replied
    Re: Switzerland voted to ban the building of Minarets

    If you want democracy, you have to live with its decisions. The Swiss simply do not want their landscape changed.

    Leave a comment:


  • freakyfreaky
    replied
    Re: Switzerland voted to ban the building of Minarets

    I dunno, but there does not seem to be much difference between a minaret or steeple except faith and the sound which emanates from the structure.





    Leave a comment:


  • garod
    replied
    Re: Switzerland voted to ban the building of Minarets

    Referendum and its dramatic connection with Eastern Swiss :

    Swiss voters back ban on minarets

    In a stunning rebuke to their main political parties - all but one of which had rejected the proposal - Swiss voters yesterday (29 November) endorsed a ban on minarets. The popular initiative was approved by 57.5% of voters and a majority in all but four of the 26 cantons.

    Voter-turnout was 53.4%, high by Swiss standards for a referendum.


    The only German-speaking canton to reject the initiative was Basel-Stadt, one of Switzerland's most urban cantons with the highest share of Muslim residents - around 10%, double the national average.

    Three French-speaking cantons - Geneva, Vaud and Neuchâtel - also voted against the ban. Zurich, Switzerland's biggest canton by far, approved the measure with a small majority of less than 52%. In Appenzell Innerrhoden, a tiny rural canton in eastern Switzerland with almost no Muslims, 71.5% voted ‘Yes', the highest share in the whole country

    http://www.europeanvoice.com/article...ets/66561.aspx

    Switzerland's Long Way to Women's Right to Vote

    1959 A majority of Switzerland's men say no in a national referendum on women's right to vote on February, 1st: 654,939 (67%) no vs. 323,727 (31%) yes. In some smaller cantons in central and eastern Switzerland the no-majority reaches more than 80%, in Appenzell Innerrhoden even 95%. Only three French speaking western cantons say yes: Vaud (51%), Neuchâtel (52%) and Geneva (60%). Vaud introduces women's right to vote in a referendum on cantonal and local level. Neuchâtel follows in September 1959, Geneva in 1960.

    1971 Finally on February, 7th women's right to vote is accepted in Switzerland with a majority of 621,109 (66%) yes vs. 323,882 (34%) no. But in central and eastern Switzerland there are still seven cantons with a no-majority. Four more cantons introduce women's right to vote on cantonal and local level by referendums: Fribourg, Schaffhausen, Zug and Aargau

    http://history-switzerland.geschicht...itzerland.html
    Last edited by garod; 12-04-2009, 10:55 AM.

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  • Eddo211
    replied
    Re: Switzerland voted to ban the building of Minarets

    Originally posted by freakyfreaky View Post
    .........Are those minarets?
    No

    The Minaret (Symbol of Faith & POWER): tall slender towers attached to the city’s mosques from which muezzins call the faithful to prayer five times a day. Indeed, the minaret—along with the dome—is one or the most characteristic forms of Islamic architecture, and the sound of the adhan, the call to prayer, is as typical of Cairo or Istanbul or Riyadh as the sound of bells is of Rome.

    Leave a comment:


  • Catharsis
    replied
    Re: Switzerland voted to ban the building of Minarets

    Originally posted by freakyfreaky View Post
    What would have happened if they stayed? Those that ended up in New Julfa and lived were in a no win situation.

    Naturally, they would have perished. Stuck between a dynasty clashing with an empire. They were moved off the battlefield in a battle they would have lost and offered a new life by those who threatened them in their captors country.

    No Armenians somewhere geographically is better than no Armenians at all.

    You knowledge is shorting you of wisdom.
    I am just saying you have to really look at the event and the total impact. Today, you see the beautiful city of New Julfa (which is also experiencing a demographic crisis) and you think of "tolerance." However, I am pointing out the genuine history that gave rise to this city, when Armenians by the whims of Shah Abbas were forced to leave their homeland on a death march, most died during the forced exile and those who made it were ordered to erect a center that would make that region of Iran prosper. If we are to be proud of New Julfa we should put things into their proper perspective.

    I do consider Iran an ally, this does stem from history (we were much closer back in time), but more importantly again Iran needs Armenia just as much because of pan-Turkism and is not simply a "good will" gesture on their part.
    Last edited by Catharsis; 12-04-2009, 01:16 AM.

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  • freakyfreaky
    replied
    Re: Switzerland voted to ban the building of Minarets

    Originally posted by Catharsis View Post
    Most perished during the forced marches. Only a tiny percent got to Isfahan, and adjoining areas.



    What I know is Armenians were living on their land and they did not want to leave their native land and were forced to do so. As I said most died during this forced exile.



    New Julfa is a great Armenian landmark today. However, this aspect is dwarfed by the sheer magnitude of Armenian death and the devastation it had on Armenia which left it (especially Eastern Armenia) virtually empty of Armenians for centuries.
    What would have happened if they stayed? Those that ended up in New Julfa and lived were in a no win situation.

    Naturally, they would have perished. Stuck between a dynasty clashing with an empire. They were moved off the battlefield in a battle they would have lost and offered a new life by those who threatened them in their country. It was not genocide. The Shah saw the Armenians as assets not liabilities.

    No Armenians somewhere geographically is better than no Armenians at all.

    Your knowledge is shorting you of wisdom.

    Leave a comment:


  • Catharsis
    replied
    Re: Switzerland voted to ban the building of Minarets

    Originally posted by freakyfreaky View Post
    I cannot really because I was not there. On Armenia maybe, but Armenians? It was a dozen of one and 12 of another. They were given the opportunity to flourish or perish.
    Most perished during the forced marches. Only a tiny percent got to Isfahan, and adjoining areas.

    In land struggles in the region with Ottomans and Persians, how often was that option given? Do you know? Do you know how Armenians prospered there? Hmm. Do you know?
    What I know is Armenians were living on their land and they did not want to leave their native land and were forced to do so. As I said most died during this forced exile.

    Is New Julfa still there, are Armenians still there? do you know, do you know?
    New Julfa is a great Armenian landmark today. However, this aspect is dwarfed by the sheer magnitude of Armenian death and the devastation it had on Armenia which left it (especially Eastern Armenia) virtually empty of Armenians for centuries.

    Leave a comment:


  • freakyfreaky
    replied
    Re: Switzerland voted to ban the building of Minarets

    Originally posted by Catharsis View Post
    Do you know the percentage of Armenians that made it alive to build New Julfa? Do you know the level (and centuries) of devastation the forced migration had on Armenia?
    I cannot really because I was not there. On Armenia maybe, but Armenians? It was a dozen of one and 12 of another. They were given the opportunity to flourish or perish.

    In land struggles in the region with Ottomans and Persians, how often was that option given? Do you know? Do you know how Armenians prospered there? Hmm. Do you know?

    Is New Julfa still there, are Armenians still there? do you know, do you know?





    Are those minarets?

    Leave a comment:

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