Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Tell us, what exactly do you think of the Armenian men and women who sacrificed their lives to defend their families and land? ... Do you really think their actions were tantamount to Nazism?

Certainly not. But maybe one should first make a distinction between martyrs and propagandists. Some sacrifice their lives. Others sacrifice the lives of others. The very difference between faith and fanatism.
Nazi sympathies? Every nationalist may have had in some form at one point in his life. Everyone is allowed to err, you know... Followers of an idea can fall prey to its perversion.

[crusader1492]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Siamanto's initial statement "2.3 There is no hard evidence that nationalist are, in general, more useful to a Nation than the average member (of the Nation.) Furthermore, many prove to be disastrous to the well being of the Nation" was a statement about nationalism in general, not armenian nationalism, specifically.

Nationalist ideologies bear some common traits. To the best of my knowledge, nazism is a nationalist ideology.
Ideologies, general speaking, even when their objectives differ wildly (e.g. nazism, bolshevism) have a lot in common, in terms of nature.
I am not equating armenian nationalism with nazism. This is ridiculous.

I'm glad you are not. However, you should be cautious when using the word nazi. Due to the highly charge nature of the word (than you western media), most will not automatically assume you are using it in an academic sense.

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Siamanto's initial statement "2.3 There is no hard evidence that nationalist are, in general, more useful to a Nation than the average member (of the Nation.) Furthermore, many prove to be disastrous to the well being of the Nation" was a statement about nationalism in general, not armenian nationalism, specifically.

Nationalist ideologies bear some common traits. To the best of my knowledge, nazism is a nationalist ideology.
Ideologies, general speaking, even when their objectives differ wildly (e.g. nazism, bolshevism) have a lot in common, in terms of nature.
I am not equating armenian nationalism with nazism. This is ridiculous.

[crusader1492]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Speaking of nazis, here is a glimpse of what Armenia is up against:

http://blogian.hayastan.com/2008/01/14/hrant-dink-and-abused-turkish-babies/

[crusader1492]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Well nazism proved to be disastrous for Germany. I hope you do not dispute this claim.
There are german nationalists who were critical of the nazis, even despised them for their primitiveness (Arthur Möller van den Bruck or Ernst Jünger come to mind, you can look them up on wikipedia)

The term Nazi has extreme negative conotations. Your twisted use of this word in connection with those who fought and died to liberate Artsakh is telling.

Tell us, what exactly do you think of the Armenian men and women who sacrificed their lives to defend their families and land? Do you not venerate them? Do you really think their actions were tantamount to Nazism?

Before you answer, consider the enemy they were fighting. Tell us what the men and women of Artsakh should have done back in the early 1990's. Should they have recited Solzhenitsyn to the enemy as operation ring was being carried out?

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

HayotzAmrotz, I too think you mean well but your enthusiasm leads me to believe you are still young and haven't had the chance to think deeply about some of the issues you raise or simply be confronted with reality.
Ideology is something. Life is another. And life is greater than any ideology.

You guys appreciate Solzhenitsyn. Read him.

Some of the points Siamanto raises are valid (even though he is a "petit con"). Part of his attitude is not, nor is his tone. And crusader's remark as to him effectively displaying the same kind of behaviour as the one he denounces is justified. If you hope to convince someone or at least bring him closer to your views, you refrain from ending your post with a "are you that simple minded?"

One of the big problems I see on these boards is the failure to reach out to people expressing different views and consider they may, if not totally accurate, contain some partial truth. There are hypocrites and charlatans on all sides, useful idiots as well. But there are also people of integrity and value with differing perceptions.

Actually if one wants to achieve progress, one has to take into account one's critics seriously (without paying too much attention to where they originate from)

I am not a relativist. There is an absolute truth. But nobody owns it apart from God. A self-proclaimed nationalist is no god. Sorry. Everyone is intolerant when it comes to their core beliefs and this is quite normal (people whose core belief is "tolerance" are intolerant of "intolerance" for example, that is, generally speaking, people holding views opposed to theirs and not willing to concede ground). Intolerance is fine to the point it doesn't prevent dialog and most importantly when one makes an effort to reevaluate one's positions, to put oneself and one's beliefs into question.

2.3 There is no hard evidence that nationalist are, in general, more useful to a Nation than the average member (of the Nation.) Furthermore, many prove to be disastrous to the well being of the Nation

Go to Yerablur cemetery and you’ll see a sea of your so called “hard evidence”. While you there make sure you kneel before their graves and thank them from the bottom of your heart for the ultimate sacrifice they have made for all of us, including you. Then ask them for forgiveness for calling their deed “disastrous”.

Well nazism proved to be disastrous for Germany. I hope you do not dispute this claim.
There are german nationalists who were critical of the nazis, even despised them for their primitiveness (Arthur Möller van den Bruck or Ernst Jünger come to mind, you can look them up on wikipedia)

Nobody knows what lies deep in the heart of someone and in this light, your statement as to "nationalists" deserving to be immune from any form of prosecution I find extremely worrying. Have you ever considered the possibility that "nationalist" ranks might get infiltrated by some very nasty elements?

If you simply make an effort, try to think more deeply beyond slogans and propaganda, read from other sources (including ones hostile to your point of view) so as to confront your ideas with others, reconsider some of your positions, then I won't have wasted my time writing this.

Please do not discard this post as "emotional" or "naive" or condescending. I am trying to be constructive. Thanks.

[crusader1492]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

I value truth, objectivity, and humility.

How profound!

Statements like this are rare for you. You are maturing.

[HayotzAmrotz]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Originally posted by Siamanto 1- My criticism of the hooligans of this forum has strictly nothing to do with nationalism: it's about hooliganism.

That’s what you want all of us here to think, but I’m not buying that! I think that your attitude has nothing to do with “our hooliganism” and everything to do with the influences you have received during your upbringing. Perhaps you’ve been brought up in an anti-Dashnak and/or anti-Nationalist environment. But since you don’t have the courage to admit that, you are using the word “hooligan” to disguise your true intention which is attacking ARF and anyone who has similar, nationalist views.

2- Being a nationalist cannot - and should not - be considered as a shield or an immunity...

Yes it can. Nationalism is both the shield and the sword of Armenia. It is the shield to protect our nation against our numerous enemies and it is the sword to destroy each and every one of these enemies without mercy. Azgainakanutiune mer Azgi Surna yev Vahane. And yes, anyone who is defending the interests of our country should be completely immune from prosecution and should receive the full protection of the state.

2.1 It would be abusing and exploiting the idea of nationalism; nationalism is a form of self-sacrifice or gift, one should not expect privileges as it's not a form of commerce

Nationalism, alongside a child, is the ultimate gift one can receive. People are not born Nationalist. Nationalism, just like the child, is born through love and struggle. Love for your own kind and struggle for the rights of your own kind. As for the privileges then the Nationalists can expect to have their names written in the annals of our history so, that the future generations will know their names and their deeds and will follow their example and try to do even better.

2.1 Nationalists are humans and prone to error, just like anybody else

Quite frankly: One can never ever be wrong if one serves the Republic of Armenia!

2.3 There is no hard evidence that nationalist are, in general, more useful to a Nation than the average member (of the Nation.) Furthermore, many prove to be disastrous to the well being of the Nation

Go to Yerablur cemetery and you’ll see a sea of your so called “hard evidence”. While you there make sure you kneel before their graves and thank them from the bottom of your heart for the ultimate sacrifice they have made for all of us, including you. Then ask them for forgiveness for calling their deed “disastrous”.

3- Claiming to be a nationalist does not make someone a nationalist;

And what does - your blessing perhaps? …Any real intellectual can clearly see that for example the Armenian has what it takes to call himself and be recognized by others as a Nationalist. He has among other things the objectivity, intelligence, patriotism and understanding of geopolitics. So, if you think he is not a Nationalist then you are simply a pseudo intellectual.

In any case, it would a bit pretentious and self righteous.

Righteousness is a religious concept. Accordingly righteous are those who lead life that pleases God. Nationalists on the other hand dedicate their life to their Nation and their State and not to Bible, Koran or Talmud. My Bible is The Constitution of the Republic of Armenia and Patmutyun Hayotz by Khorenatsi.

In other words, the fact that a narrow minded hooligan - like Dr. Junkenstein/Armenian, Virgil, crusader1492 or.... - considers himself/herself a nationalist, it does/should not make him/her any different, valuable than any other Armenian. Specially when those hooligans are uncultured individuals who are infiltrating Jurkish values among us.

Nationalism is not supposed to be broadminded. It is only about the National Interests of my Country and my People. And if it requires me in the interest of my Country and my People to squash other nations, other states and anti-state organizations and other people (foreigners) - all these in the interest of my Country and my People then I will do so without a second of hesitation. Anyone who understands that and is ready for it is much more valuable to Armenia than anyone who isn’t. Cultured ways have no place in the battlefield and in the negotiations room, so stop calling Nationalists “uncultured” because we are not in the business of making our neighbors cultured, we are in the business of protecting our State

That may be a rule of conduct for you; however, the behavior of hooligans like Dr. Junkenstein - aka Armenian - Virgil, and...is the exact opposite. If you sincerely believe in what you have stated, then shouldn't you put some efforts into inviting your hooligans buddies to respect other members of the forum and/or of the larger Armenian Community? Otherwise, I'm afraid that you will be taking the risk of being perceived as a hypocrite

I’ve got no intention of going through forum’s dirty laundry and then playing a judge in order to establish who started attacking who. It simply has to stop because it is not only a pointless waste of time but it is also very harmful for our Nation. I don’t know your background so I don’t know if you are really aware of how many enemies Armenia and Armenians have in the world. Let me just say - a huge amount. OK? So people either realize that and unite under Yeraguin, which is the symbol of every Armenian regardless of their political affiliation, or keep stabbing each other and make our enemies happy.

Your understanding of the intent of my post proved to be totally erroneous, I gave you the opportunity to turn around; instead, apparently lacking the courage to admit your mistake, you have stubbornly insisted and replied with nonsensical absurdities such as: "What you call a Central Asian mentality, I call Armenian National Interests (ANI)."

Wow! How generous of you to “give me the opportunity” to “turn around”. LOL. Why are you such a bloody snob? Is that because you hold a British or some sort of Commonwealth passport and believe that you belong to and represent a higher civilization? Listen, Sir Snob - Did you read what I suggested you to read? Namely Shahan Natalie? Once you read his works and understand them then you will understand what I meant by “What you call a Central Asian mentality, I call Armenian National Interests (ANI)."

Your "mentality is The Spirit of Our Nation that was born in the Battle of Dyutsaznamart 4500 years ago?" I don't know if you're just another illuminati in need of a big dose of reality and/or lucidity; or just a clown thinking that we're fool enough to buy such a laughable and absurd fair tale??

At this stage I’m going to disregard all those bits where you were simply abusive because if I go down that path with you right now you will eventually get a heart attack and die in agony behind your computer’s screen and won’t be able to answer me this question with regards to the Battle of Dyutsaznamart: Is it in your opinion, as you put it, a “laughable and absurd fair tale”?

[Sip]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Btw Sip, is there anything that you take seriously in life? Judging from your snide posts I'm not sure that there is anything.

I value truth, objectivity, and humility.

[crusader1492]

Re: Happy Birthday Ara Baliozian!

Btw Sip, is there anything that you take seriously in life? Judging from your snide posts I'm not sure that there is anything. You seem dead inside...lost...unabashedly assimilated.

Anyway, I hope you get well.