Freewill?

[Crimson Glow]

Re: Freewill?

Who thinks they have freewill? Most do, right? Well, let's think about that for a second. If we had free will, why would we have to abide by certain supernatural laws, like the laws of nature for example, without wanting to?

Supernatural and natural are 2 different things. Supernatural applies to the things that CAN'T be defined by the laws of nature. They are "other worldly" things. You also seem to be confusing free will with choices in general. Not being able to control the laws of nature has nothing to do with how much free will we have. Free will refers to how much choice we have in the way we react to everything around us. Are the choices we make already known/determined on a preplanned path, or are we making it up as we go along?

How could people predict what could happen CENTURIES later? We're not talking about an easy prediction here, we're talking about a prediction that was made CENTURIES ago! So, if everything is just a random sequence, how could everything turn out JUST the way people like Nastradamus predicted?

Nostradamus didn't predict jack shit. All he did was make a never ending sea of babbling guesses, all of which were very vague and general so that they could be interpreted and applied to a whole host of events. This is no different than interpreting vague song lyrics. They can be applied to many things, and make sense, but that doesn't mean you have the right interpretation. Only the artist knows what the song really means/is about.

BTW, most of the "prediction" quotes circulating over the internet the last 5 to 10 years that people have been attributing to Nostradamus are fake to begin with.

This argument presents us with puzzle then. How do predictions work, how do people see the future (near/far, doesn't matter), and wait for it ...

They don't. There are only crackpots, and naturally, through the millions of crackpots that have come and gone on this planet, the odds make it inevitable that an actual event will coincide with one of the random "predictions" once in a while. This in no way proves their are people with "psychic abilities". If you truly believe in that crap, give Miss Cleo a call (and your credit card number), and let her "predict" what your free will, or lack there of, has to offer you in your future.

Does the world still seem so random? I doubt it. So if we agree that the world isn't random then who makes the choices?

WHOA, there, cowboy! You're trying to go from point A, to conclusion C with out a proven route B. Relax. You haven't offered any substantiating evidence to show that the world isn't random. If you really want to "crack the puzzle", you should check what you're basing your opinions and theories on for validity first.

This thread really gets you thinking.

Since when has passing off random, baseless, unsubstantiated claims in some psuedo attempt to show deductive reasoning been considered thinking?

[Haykakan]

Re: Freewill?

Since when has passing off random, baseless, unsubstantiated claims in some psuedo attempt to show deductive reasoning been considered thinking?

Kind of summs it up for me regarding most of these threads sako started. They may seem interesting to him but like um yeh im goin fishing.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Freewill?

Supernatural and natural are 2 different things. Supernatural applies to the things that CAN'T be defined by the laws of nature. They are "other worldly" things. You also seem to be confusing free will with choices in general. Not being able to control the laws of nature has nothing to do with how much free will we have. Free will refers to how much choice we have in the way we react to everything around us. Are the choices we make already known/determined on a preplanned path, or are we making it up as we go along?

Like I said before, we have some choices in life. However, we aren't even free to learn what we want or do what we want because we don't have the "money" to do it. We might be on a preplanned destination. For those who believe in conspiracies, they would be inclined to say it's planned out by powerful people. For those who can't fathom that kind of large scale planning can be possible, they can explain it by random luck or a deity. If you look at the bigger picture, it could be like going from work to home using different roads everyday. In the end, you're just going from point A to point B, how you get there is your choice.

[Sip]

Re: Freewill?

Suppose I make a robot whose only function is to decide whether to go left or right when it gets to a fork in the road. I program the robot such that it can decide on its own whether to go left or right .. it's entirely up to the robot to decide what it wants to do.

Obviously the robot can't suddenly turn into a bird and it can't suddenly become a chess champion. It also can't predict what will happen 200 years from now. But the question is, does that robot have the free will to go either left or right when it reaches the fork in the road?

[Haykakan]

Re: Freewill?

Suppose I make a robot whose only function is to decide whether to go left or right when it gets to a fork in the road. I program the robot such that it can decide on its own whether to go left or right .. it's entirely up to the robot to decide what it wants to do.

Obviously the robot can't suddenly turn into a bird and it can't suddenly become a chess champion. It also can't predict what will happen 200 years from now. But the question is, does that robot have the free will to go either left or right when it reaches the fork in the road?

I guess it does since it decides for itself.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Freewill?

How would you program the decision making of the robot? What would determine whether it decides to go left or right? Is the robot a Democrat or Republican? Liberal or Conservative? Blue Army or Red Army?

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Re: Freewill?

Suppose I make a robot whose only function is to decide whether to go left or right when it gets to a fork in the road. I program the robot such that it can decide on its own whether to go left or right .. it's entirely up to the robot to decide what it wants to do.

Obviously the robot can't suddenly turn into a bird and it can't suddenly become a chess champion. It also can't predict what will happen 200 years from now. But the question is, does that robot have the free will to go either left or right when it reaches the fork in the road?

Well, the robot needs a predefined set of functions, more likely than not it would go in the old OOBP system :

event!
if <state> then <state>
else if <state>
else <state>

And will be told to randomize, does it free think, not neccesarily as it needs those values entered for it, with randomizing it needs an algorithm to work with the subset, it cannot learn as such, you need to program it to learn, it has no free opininos, cannot change states according to emotion.

Hence the AI does what you tell it to do, it only randomizes if you tell it to, and only with what it is told, kinda like George Bush and John Ashcroft

[KanadaHye]

Re: Freewill?

How could people predict what could happen CENTURIES later? We're not talking about an easy prediction here, we're talking about a prediction that was made CENTURIES ago! So, if everything is just a random sequence, how could everything turn out JUST the way people like Nastradamus predicted?

This argument presents us with puzzle then. How do predictions work, how do people see the future (near/far, doesn't matter), and wait for it ... where do they, the predictions, come from? I doubt people just thought of them whilst sitting on a log like Winnie the Pooh and poking their head, saying "Think, Think, Think" . I doubt it came from good thinking. And even if that's the case ... is that what happened CENTURIES ago? Is that rational?

Every society is based on a model (whether it be capitalism, socialism or communism) and the outcome of the model is predictable. It's just a matter of time until history repeats itself.

[Haykakan]

Re: Freewill?

Well, the robot needs a predefined set of functions, more likely than not it would go in the old OOBP system :

event!
if <state> then <state>
else if <state>
else <state>

And will be told to randomize, does it free think, not neccesarily as it needs those values entered for it, with randomizing it needs an algorithm to work with the subset, it cannot learn as such, you need to program it to learn, it has no free opininos, cannot change states according to emotion.

Hence the AI does what you tell it to do, it only randomizes if you tell it to, and only with what it is told, kinda like George Bush and John Ashcroft

Emotions and learning can be programmed into a ai program. One can today create a computer with its own free will. Technology can and probably eventualy will take over humanity one day because our own creation will be better then us.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Freewill?

Emotions and learning can be programmed into a ai program. One can today create a computer with its own free will. Technology can and probably eventualy will take over humanity one day because our own creation will be better then us.

This is quite possible, however it would only succeed if the mastermind was somewhere unreachable by us mortal citizens.... say like the International Space Station. We've already become slaves for mini mansions and automobiles... shouldn't be too hard to take us over.