Debate over origins of Christianity

[Armanen]

Kanada, frickin Christianity and Islam have the Old Testament as the foundation from which their respective innovations were built on, what is your point? Not many nations could be responsible for having half the world follow religions based on their own patron God, it seems this is a unique feat of xxxish culture. It would be like the rest of the world worshiping Hayk, rather than Yahweh if we could compare to the xxxs in that arena.

This influence of xxxish culture on western culture is so old and deep that European linguists in the 16th century still tried to link their lexicon, which we presently know to be Indo-European, to their Hebrew origin which Adam began for all of humanity. The Christian Holy land is the same as the xxxish one, and Jerusalem had been used time and time again as a metaphor for Heaven. The same cannot be said for anything English, Armenian, Italian... not even Greek. So it's worthless to bicker about how much xxxish culture there is in Western culture, we can't change that. What we can learn from them is the extent of their success that they realized through their economic partnership with one another, a strategy known to all sorts of diasporan and emigrated groups, but none can compare to the success they entail for Israel. And they are enthusiastic in this endeavor. We should feel the same way. Haykakan brings up a good point, that we forget our homeland too easily. If we linked entrepreneurial success with working with other Armenians, especially in Armenia, then we will all rise together. We face barriers though for achieving this end, mainly hostile attitudes between Armenians from different factions or backgrounds... This is the problem I'm trying to address. It's a problem that xxxs don't seem to experience, and this is why I think they've so successful in propping each other up. And presented with obvious socio-economic benefits as an incentive for participating in their heritage community and their vast global network, xxxs have an easy time attracting xxxish born children to remain within their fold as they grow up, and they become natural promulgators of their culture while remaining small and close-knit enough to keep the benefits of being xxxish relatively exclusive to their own fold. This is something no other nation has done to the extent they have, and it is the secret to their resilience without numbers. We also lack numbers, we aren't 50 million strong. We cannot afford to base our strategies on a model too unlike the xxxish one. I'm not saying we should adopt their unique culture, but we must pay attention to the similarities and differences between our strategies and their own in the diaspora. I'm just saying... look at their business strategies. As pathetic as it may sound, commerce keeps people peaceful, and working together. in order to have successful commerce between different parties, they must all agree to put their differences aside when interacting with each other. How are we doing this as Armenians? Are we doing a good job? How can we be better?

The Christian God is a far cry from yahweh. The Protestants, especially fundamentalist ones, have done a good job of convincing most Americans that judaism is the ONLY core of Christianity, when in fact Pagan traditions, Mithraism and Zoroastarianism have play just as big if not bigger part.

Look thru some of these books for more info on the above.

Jehovah Unmasked

Gnosticism - New Light on the Ancient Tradition of Inner Knowing

World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors - Christianity Before Christ

Suns of God

The Early History of God - Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel

The Power of Myth

[jgk3]

Re: How to "convert" dormant Armenians to the Hye Tad?

The Christian God is a far cry from yahweh. The Protestants, especially fundamentalist ones, have done a good job of convincing most Americans that judaism is the ONLY core of Christianity, when in fact Pagan traditions, Mithraism and Zoroastarianism have play just as big if not bigger part.

Look thru some of these books for more info on the above.

Jehovah Unmasked

Gnosticism - New Light on the Ancient Tradition of Inner Knowing

World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors - Christianity Before Christ

Suns of God

The Early History of God - Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel

The Power of Myth

Armanen, I might check out your sources, but I encourage you to instead explain their most important points (where you find contention with my own) in response to my post.

Zoroastrianism and Mithraism more influencial than Judaism? We don't know jack xxxx about Mithraism as a coherent tradition and are stuck mostly familiar with its secret masonic hype in Roman society. And Zoroastrianism had its tango with Judaism after the Persians conquered the Babylonians, xxxish religion was likely deeply influenced by its conceptions of heaven/hell, angels, ressurection, etc... The books of Daniel and Esther in the OT were written by Iranian xxxs and contain chronicles of Persian court and ritual life that are not attested anywhere else and are actually much older than any similar records produced by Persians.

Also, there is no clearcut "Zoroastrianism" that is out there which can account for all the forms it has taken, dynasty after dynasty, because they do not reflect the folk religion but simply the noble houses in Iran, all pushing for their own monopoly over religious authority in the country, each rival with its own "doctrinal variant" of Zoroastrianism, which in most sectarian societies, emphasize trivial differences just for the sake of having their own sect, similarly to Armenian vs Greek orthodoxy concerning the Monophysite heresy. So just like Judaism, Zoroastrianism is a religious tradition moreso than some kind of clearcut religious doctrine. It's organic, it evolves and emphasizes different conceptions generation after generation. This is why Zoroastrians today have such hot debates over whether to follow only the Gathas, the oldest, most authentically the words of Zoroaster, or to follow the vast religious literature that has been produced since then. When you link Christianity to Zoroastrianism, does any of this even occur to you: that Judaism has been in contact with Zoroastrianism longer than Christianity? Perhaps Christianity gets its Zoroastrianism Judaism's tango with Zoroastrianism under the days of Cyrus the Great and onwards, as I previously described.

JK3 your outlook on the xxxish monopoly on monotheism is wrong as Armanen explained. Monotheism is based on sunworship the judaism is also based on sun worship as in the "one sun". Hrias want you to think that everything is based on them becaus of their self absorbed culture but that is not the case at all.

xxxs have no monopoly on monotheism, in fact, monotheism is not a doctrine, but a categorial view of religion that Christians and Muslims have been imposing on all the world's religions they've been encountering for the past long while...

The ancient world view of Judaism says, "Worship no Gods before me", implying that there are other Gods out there, but you shouldn't worship them. Compare this to Christianity and Islam, where there is an overt denial of the existance of other Gods, and thus, you get your Monotheism. This has nothing to do with an origin to sun cults or any bs like that. This is just a matter of how intolerant you are of polytheism. Nonetheless, the attributes of this monotheistic God of Christians and Muslims gets its whole background source from the Old Testament. Jesus' legitimacy as the Messiah is even based on his descent from Abraham and all the important prophets who descended from him, this is described in the first chapter of the gospel of Matthew. It does not matter if Jesus behaves as a reformer of xxxish Law when he's teaching God's word, performing miracles, etc... the point is, he's dealing with a xxxish innovation that is pervasive in all that the Christian bible describes, and if Protestants like to be less hush hush about it than we, that doesn't prove it's not there.

Zoroastrianism was like Judaism in that nowhere did it state that there is only a chief God (which we like to think in Zoroastrianism was Ahura Mazda, but unfortunately the poor guy lost his place to all sorts of other divinities during the history of the Zoroastrian tradition, before finally reassuming it later on), and NO other Gods. No, there was always a plurality of Gods.

The term "sun worship" is vague, it's just a blanket term for lay people to generalize a vast proportion of the world's deities who are identified with the sun (and with possibly other things too), which are "apparently" all coming from a common primordial source. If you're going to make arguments with it, please define what specific solar deities you think are somehow influencing the worship of Jesus, exclusive to any influence occurring in Judaism, and then we can gauge how crucial this relationship between the two actually are.

[Haykakan]

Re: Debate over origins of Christianity

"Worship no Gods before me" funny how this quote so accurately reflects the narcistic nature of the xxxish religion and culture. This narcisism is unfortunately spreading into western culture and it is evident in everything the USA does. It is ok to invade and destroy sovreign countries and kill hundreds of thousends of people along with their cultures because i want some cheap oil i can sell at very high prices. It is ok to turn the whole world upside down so i can have my racist-fascist state of isreal. Why on earth would anyone want to be a part of this or any other religion based on such inhuman bullkak is beyond me. As for it being monotheism or not i guess that depends your definition of the word. Monotheism is usually defined as the worship of a single diety and i have never seen it discuss wether it means that there are no other gods to worship or if there are but only one should be worshiped. The worship of a single diety seems to cover both angles thus both can be said to be monotheist religions. I also disagree with the notion that judaism has nothing to do with sunworship, its premis of worshiping one god comes directly from sun worship and your own description of the long relationship between judaism and zoroastrianism suggests it was influenced. I am not implying that any religion is better than another (as you well know i hate all religions) but obviously some are more harmful then others. I guess if you did have to worship something it would indeed be the sun since our very lives depend on its energy and unlike pretty much all other religions this one would atleast be crediting something that actually does us some good. Again i dont want to imply that sunworship is a good idea but compared to all the other crap we got to work with so far it atleast makes sence.

[jgk3]

Re: Debate over origins of Christianity

In that case, the Greek Pantheon in the Olympian cult is monotheistic when you worship Zeus as first among the Gods.

As for monotheism having some kind of inherent connection to sun cults, this conviction is betrayed by the fact that time and time again, the chief god of many cultures is a stormgod that brings terror to mankind when they upset it.

Finally, I fail to see anything that is distinctly xxxish about the "narcissism" you describe from this classic law occuring organically in diverse religions.

[Armanen]

Re: Debate over origins of Christianity

I will post a reply soon.

[Haykakan]

Re: Debate over origins of Christianity

In that case, the Greek Pantheon in the Olympian cult is monotheistic when you worship Zeus as first among the Gods.

As for monotheism having some kind of inherent connection to sun cults, this conviction is betrayed by the fact that time and time again, the chief god of many cultures is a stormgod that brings terror to mankind when they upset it.

Finally, I fail to see anything that is distinctly xxxish about the "narcissism" you describe from this classic law occuring organically in diverse religions.

The Greeks never said dont worship the other gods, they worsiped many unlike the xxxs. Zeus was simply the macdady of gods but they acnowledged and worsiped many thus this is polythyism vs what you yourself described as judaism. The Greeks never saaid dont worship the other gods while thats exactly what judaism says.
Does it really matter if monotheism is connected to the sungod or the stormgod or the easterbunny?
If you dont see how narcissism is the overwhelming theme in the xxxish culture then perhaps you are in need of glasses. Almost all other religions encourage brotherhood and helping the poor or something of that nature. Islam is a good example of a religion that advicates both. Chrystianity also makes references to helping the poor. You wont find any of that in judaism because that religion is all about "me". This focus on "me" makes anything ok as long as it does "me" good. It is ok to do this because it will make me rich and the fact that it will make ten other eople poor is irrelavent because "me" is all that matters. Again i do not claim this is a race relaavent issue it is a cultural issue based on the prevelent religion of that culture. There are many xxxs who are giving and even alturistic but most will be a good example of narcissism.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Debate over origins of Christianity

The Greeks never said dont worship the other gods, they worsiped many unlike the xxxs. Zeus was simply the macdady of gods but they acnowledged and worsiped many thus this is polythyism vs what you yourself described as judaism. The Greeks never saaid dont worship the other gods while thats exactly what judaism says.
Does it really matter if monotheism is connected to the sungod or the stormgod or the easterbunny?
If you dont see how narcissism is the overwhelming theme in the xxxish culture then perhaps you are in need of glasses. Almost all other religions encourage brotherhood and helping the poor or something of that nature. Islam is a good example of a religion that advicates both. Chrystianity also makes references to helping the poor. You wont find any of that in judaism because that religion is all about "me". This focus on "me" makes anything ok as long as it does "me" good. It is ok to do this because it will make me rich and the fact that it will make ten other eople poor is irrelavent because "me" is all that matters. Again i do not claim this is a race relaavent issue it is a cultural issue based on the prevelent religion of that culture. There are many xxxs who are giving and even alturistic but most will be a good example of narcissism.

Check.... mate.

[freakyfreaky]

Re: Debate over origins of Christianity

what came first the chicken or the egg.

one need only look to the Psalms which are recognized not only in Judaism and Christianity but also Islam.

Take a look at psalm 23 or the Shepherd's Prayer.

Psalm 23

1The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

2He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

3He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

4Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

5Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

[jgk3]

Re: Debate over origins of Christianity

The Greeks never said dont worship the other gods, they worsiped many unlike the xxxs. Zeus was simply the macdady of gods but they acnowledged and worsiped many thus this is polythyism vs what you yourself described as judaism. The Greeks never saaid dont worship the other gods while thats exactly what judaism says.
Does it really matter if monotheism is connected to the sungod or the stormgod or the easterbunny?
If you dont see how narcissism is the overwhelming theme in the xxxish culture then perhaps you are in need of glasses. Almost all other religions encourage brotherhood and helping the poor or something of that nature. Islam is a good example of a religion that advicates both. Chrystianity also makes references to helping the poor. You wont find any of that in judaism because that religion is all about "me". This focus on "me" makes anything ok as long as it does "me" good. It is ok to do this because it will make me rich and the fact that it will make ten other eople poor is irrelavent because "me" is all that matters. Again i do not claim this is a race relaavent issue it is a cultural issue based on the prevelent religion of that culture. There are many xxxs who are giving and even alturistic but most will be a good example of narcissism.

I disagree with your assessment of the attraction of xxxs towards positions of power at the expense of gentiles as being rooted to their religious doctrine of having a jealous God. I much more readily relate it to the fact that they, like Christians in the Ottoman empire, were second class citizens in Europe. They were the scorn of Christians for not being taxable by the church, and for being able to engage in "usury" without any reprisal as it was not considered a mortal sin outside of Christianity.

They were barred from guilds, and yet played an important role in providing loans with interest in order to squeeze the wealth out of other non-taxable elements of Christian Europe, such as the nobility and the clergy. After the xxx got his payoff, the king would purge him and eat up his sinful profits. The xxx would forever be sitting on a fence, and had no allies for a long time. And so, they were less fascinated by the metaphysical questions brought forth by Christian scholasticism, abhored ideas of serving the same Christian honour which periodically purged them of their property and security, etc... This can leads them to two things. 1. Rejecting, or de-emphasizing all romantic spiritual ideals except the hope to return to their homeland someday. 2. Being attracted to schemes that overtime, give them secure wealth and influence in a hostile sea of gentiles. And finally, just as we, in our church, think of Astvads as the God of Armenians to whom we can pray to protect our homeland (and when we're in a more angry mood, pray to bring justice for the genocide), xxxs too can have their own sentiments expressed as elements in their worship of Yahweh.

Not all xxxs bought into this tenacious resistance to the gentiles, many converted to Christianity, many gave up Zionism and hated everything about their xxxish heritage, and mostly during Nazi Germany they were re-exposed for their xxxish heritage, being placed back into it due to their genetic history, by force. Europe was good at purging its xxxs for a long time until the Age of Enlightenment occured, and Western Europeans, tired of killing eachother over religion (the 100 years war), became softer and more interested in commerce as a means of keeping the peace (Nazi Germany in the 20th century represented a brief return to a Europe where the effects of the Age of Enlightenment did not reign, and thus, xxxs can be traditionally purged again). Doctrines such as Adam Smith's advocacy of self interested behavior in commerce which is protected from being meddled by religious orientation, came to the fore, and of course, xxxs, who are always keen on anything that brings them a sense of security, jumped on this trend and must have done everything in their efforts to promulgate it. A great zeal came out of them now, in a Europe that was willing to emancipate its people and protect private property of its common citizens. They took good advantage of it. xxxs used their small population but vast network in order to rise as a merchant class, so that their role in the world would not be restricted to the labour class, as was the case for the majority of the population who now had to readjust from being a common serf, to an urban labour class citizen, a scheme that is ongoing everywhere in the globalizing world. xxxs did not dabble with this transition for too long, they managed to get the WASP institutions eliminate the quotas for non-WASPS, and got educations and positions which greatly increased their representation in all the most influencial domains of the economy. They were willing to do the hard work in this transition period from the 30s-50s in North America, and they, as an ethnic group, succeeded and are enjoying the fruits of this endeavor today. The more recent Chinese and Indian immigrants are following the same example, though they are different as the sheer mass of their population and the dynamics of their respective nations also play a role in their perception and behavior towards of their "odars".

Now, about this "brotherhood" crap being different between Christianity + Islam, vs. Judaism, I don't see your point. Muslims help muslims, kill or convert infidels. Christians help christians (within their own sect of course), or serve the church hierarchy, or (evangelicals) convert heathens through socio-economical benefits (often after meddling/sabotaging the native ecosystem/economy in the name of civilization and democracy).

xxxs, similarly help xxxs, and will screw anyone else over in order to achieve this end. They are willing to accept converts, but it's not their main agenda since they're not like Islam and Christianity which, for historical reasons, enjoyed a wealth of numbers over a billion people each, whereas Judaism was always based on the earthly nation of Israel, a scorn for all its neighbours and occupiers. This global scorn never left them. So, instead of prioritizing getting another body to fill the prayer stalls in their weekly religious ceremonies, they prefer to have influence over other groups who will bother to do that, so that they don't have to contend with them in numbers using their meagre xxxish population.

In the end, perhaps the specialness of the xxxs as being "the most narcissistic" is just our envy for not being able to crush their rivalry to our own quest for prominence. Even though Christianity has brought large shares of the world population into their fold, its fragmented secterian population has never been able to experience the success of xxxs per capita in commerce... and thus excellent international and highly mobile influence in politics, a most prized weapon by any religion or race.

If you want to beat the xxx, you have to beat them at their game. There is no royal class left to purge the xxxs when they've reached their threshold of desirable "usurious" behavior. Whining about their religion and how it makes them especially evil is not going to take us far, it will just trigger alarms for them if we ever actually are able to seriously challenge their positions of influence. Personally, I am also quite wary of some xxxs and their schemes I've called them out on or have been able to identify from afar. I think we should keep a sharp eye and a simple mouth, it will unsettle our rivals, and yet they will not be able to lay a hand on us. Let them slip up in hesitation, and we check mate them.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Debate over origins of Christianity

This is all pretty interesting... As for the current state of Israel, it's really a mystery to me why Zionists (whether claiming to be J3wish or Xtian) cling on to the claim that the current land which Zionists stole while the Ottoman Empire was being dismantled; while our ancestors were being butchered, belongs to them. According to many discussions and websites, the J3ws are also suffering from an identity crisis since Khazarian J3ws have Turkic origins.

The Khazars adopted the J3wish religion in 860 A.D. At that point they became the Khazarian-xxxs.

The Khazarian-xxxs are also referred to as the Ashkenazi-xxxs (Ashkenazi describes a place of origin around southern Russia, Armenia, and Asia Minor). They are also sometimes referred to as the Eastern-xxxs.

- Theodore Herzl organized the first Zionist Congress in Basle, Switzerland in 1897 which became the foundation of a mass Zionist movement. "Zionism" became an international political party of which Khazarian-xxxs have controlled up to the present day.

- The Khazarian-xxxs at this point became the Zionist-xxxs and prefer to be called by this name but also refer to the name "xxxs" or "Zionists", whichever suits their purpose.


GOG, MAGOG AND THE KINGDOM OF THE KHAZARS Part II
http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_d...p?q=1259786643