Atheism and being Armenian

[Siggie]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Well obviously I believe we should be respectful to both sides. That being said, Armenian society is not an atheistic society in nature. Rather, a society that has in it the Christian values of the Armenian Apostolic faith. So the burden falls on the non-believers more to be respectful and yield to society that is. I see any person especially an Armenian demeaning the Armenian Church and outwardly attacking it and the Armenian faith in general as an attack on values that have played key role in our culture and history. So it is attacking part of the Armenian nation, which is unacceptable on behalf of a fellow Armenian. It's the same feeling one would have if a fellow Armenian was attacking our heroes in our history.

We should respect other religions and any criticism should come in academic form. That being said, it doesn't give excuse for fellow Armenians to shoot themselves in the foot.

You're repeating that we shouldn't demean or be disrespectful, but you're not adding much to address what I was saying which was what is disrespectful or demeaning?

I don't think the argument that the culture has values that are Christian values and so non-believers have to yield? What values are you talking about that are exclusively Christian?

[Mos]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

I think if you asked believers if they feel superior in some way to non-believers, you'd get about the same proportions answering in the affirmative as if you did the reverse. This hasn't been done though, so rather than claim that one side tends to do this to the other, perhaps we can acknowledge that it seems this way to the opposite side.

See, the problem is that there's not agreement about what's demeaning. People tend to be offended by any criticism. Being critical of the church isn't necessarily disrespectful. Also, why should the church enjoy that position of privilege to be above any scrutiny?
Should we respect all religions or only the one that our people tend to subscribe to? Is it okay to "demean" or be critical of the church of scientology, by comparison? For less odd comparison, what about Islam? Should that be protected too or is it just that we tend to want to protect our religious organizations only?

Well obviously I believe we should be respectful to both sides. That being said, Armenian society is not an atheistic society in nature. Rather, a society that has in it the Christian values of the Armenian Apostolic faith. So the burden falls on the non-believers more to be respectful and yield to society that is. I see any person especially an Armenian demeaning the Armenian Church and outwardly attacking it and the Armenian faith in general as an attack on values that have played key role in our culture and history. So it is attacking part of the Armenian nation, which is unacceptable on behalf of a fellow Armenian. It's the same feeling one would have if a fellow Armenian was attacking our heroes in our history.

We should respect other religions and any criticism should come in academic form. That being said, it doesn't give excuse for fellow Armenians to shoot themselves in the foot.

[Sip]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

I think I have said this before in that atheists and the religious pretty much tend to behave in the same ways about thinking they are right about what they KNOW to be True. The only difference of course is that the athetists are probably right since there is absolutely nothing, 0, none, zilch, null, nill, vochich, nada to support any claims made by the religious people where all of those would support what the atheists are saying 100%.

Of course I have no clue whether either one is right (no one can know) but I do know with very very high confidence that the Christian claims and the Bible stories about Creation are absolute bullxxxx ... and if Creation, a fundamental piece of the religion is sooooo fricking wrong, what chance does the rest of it have really?

[Siggie]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

I'm saying arrogance against believers, attacking or demeaning people who unlike them are religious and have beliefs. More to that, it's unacceptable for them to do the same to the Armenian Church, which is an important part of the Armenian nation. They should keep their beliefs to themselves and not use to attack people or demean an important element of the nation.

I think if you asked believers if they feel superior in some way to non-believers, you'd get about the same proportions answering in the affirmative as if you did the reverse. This hasn't been done though, so rather than claim that one side tends to do this to the other, perhaps we can acknowledge that it seems this way to the opposite side.

See, the problem is that there's not agreement about what's demeaning. People tend to be offended by any criticism. Being critical of the church isn't necessarily disrespectful. Also, why should the church enjoy that position of privilege to be above any scrutiny?
Should we respect all religions or only the one that our people tend to subscribe to? Is it okay to "demean" or be critical of the church of scientology, by comparison? For less odd comparison, what about Islam? Should that be protected too or is it just that we tend to want to protect our religious organizations only?

[Mos]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

What do you mean by arrogance or disrespect for the church? Is criticism the same as disrespect? I don't even know how one can have arrogance for anything. Arrogant is a quality of the person; it's something you are.

I'm not sure what you're saying... Is it that you think it's okay not to believe so long as you're respectful (and not arrogant? I guess you'll explain this one) of the Church? That's what it sounded like to me.

I'm saying arrogance against believers, attacking or demeaning people who unlike them are religious and have beliefs. More to that, it's unacceptable for them to do the same to the Armenian Church, which is an important part of the Armenian nation. They should keep their beliefs to themselves and not use to attack people or demean an important element of the nation.

[Siggie]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

So 23 pages in, where has this conversation led to? Any resolution?

My grandfather for example was a hard-working man who worked like a good communist from a early age in the fields picking greens (very strenuous job!) to working in factories, whose father was a dedicated Communist. His father's staunch communism rubbed off on him, as even today when you ask him about religion, he calls it off as a big lie and almost like a conspiracy. Though, he's not one of those people that has allergies regarding anything with religion, he will still visit Church when its needed (ceremonies) and will respect the Church, even though he necessarily won't believe in it. So you will find atheism or just simply irreligious mindset among the Armenian populace, especially ones who grew up in Soviet Armenia, however, you will not find very often an arrogance or disrespect to the Church establishment, most of those feelings will be kept within.

What do you mean by arrogance or disrespect for the church? Is criticism the same as disrespect? I don't even know how one can have arrogance for anything. Arrogant is a quality of the person; it's something you are.

I'm not sure what you're saying... Is it that you think it's okay not to believe so long as you're respectful (and not arrogant? I guess you'll explain this one) of the Church? That's what it sounded like to me.

[Mos]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

So 23 pages in, where has this conversation led to? Any resolution?

My grandfather for example was a hard-working man who worked like a good communist from a early age in the fields picking greens (very strenuous job!) to working in factories, whose father was a dedicated Communist. His father's staunch communism rubbed off on him, as even today when you ask him about religion, he calls it off as a big lie and almost like a conspiracy. Though, he's not one of those people that has allergies regarding anything with religion, he will still visit Church when its needed (ceremonies) and will respect the Church, even though he necessarily won't believe in it. So you will find atheism or just simply irreligious mindset among the Armenian populace, especially ones who grew up in Soviet Armenia, however, you will not find very often an arrogance or disrespect to the Church establishment, most of those feelings will be kept within.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Yes, good point.

It's a sh!tty point. It's like replacing "Star Search" with "American Idol".

I think we can agree that from the title at least, it doesn't present itself as a historical source. This is part of the problem of trying to deduce fact and fiction from legends and oral history.

So when the victors of WWI write your history, you as an Armenian should believe their account of events right? Because it's academic and you're just a dumb Armenian.

I think it's hard to draw a truly meaningful distinction.

It's pretty easy to draw a truly meaningful distinction. When Armenians freed themselves (temporarily) from the Soviet rule, they returned back to Christianity.

[Siggie]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

In the above, if you were to replace "Christianity" with "Pagan" and "churches" with "temples", and then replace "Soviet doctrine" with "Christianity" then you will be writing about what happened to the population of Armenia in the 4th century AD.

Although both conversions were imposed from above, unlike during the imposition of Christian doctrine, considerably less priests were killed and only a handful of religious shrines were actually demolished during the imposition of Soviet doctrine.

Yes, good point.

Do you have any historical evidence of who the book was bought by? Bell the Cat is really a 110 year old Armenian in cat's clothing.

I think we can agree that from the title at least, it doesn't present itself as a historical source. This is part of the problem of trying to deduce fact and fiction from legends and oral history.

The difference being the population of Armenia was mobile traveling across the Anatolian plains in the 4th century AD while the Soviets created a prison for Armenians and force fed their doctrine.

I think it's hard to draw a truly meaningful distinction.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

"Armenian Legends and Poems" is not (and never was meant to be) an academic book. It was bought by those who already knew the subject, and bought as a bit of expensive fluff for show (the 1910s equivalent of a "coffee-table book").

Do you have any historical evidence of who the book was bought by? Bell the Cat is really a 110 year old Armenian in cat's clothing. As I stated "it was common knowledge" as in Armenians were well educated in their own history, religious and otherwise so it's obvious that the book represented people that knew the subject (Armenians)

The book is online and can be found here:
http://www.archive.org/stream/armeni...ge/n7/mode/2up

In the above, if you were to replace "Christianity" with "Pagan" and "churches" with "temples", and then replace "Soviet doctrine" with "Christianity" then you will be writing about what happened to the population of Armenia in the 4th century AD.

Although both conversions were imposed from above, unlike during the imposition of Christian doctrine, considerably less priests were killed and only a handful of religious shrines were actually demolished during the imposition of Soviet doctrine.

The difference being the population of Armenia was mobile traveling across the Anatolian plains in the 4th century AD while the Soviets created a prison for Armenians and force fed their doctrine.