Atheism and being Armenian

[Vishap90]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

I find this so very interesting, because I keep hearing all the freakin time from both Armenians and non-Armenians this foolish idea of Armenian = Christian. This is just not true, the last thing christianity and that jewish god is, is being Armenian.
We're an ethnic group and not a religious, I wish people could get that through their thick skull.

Damn I hate these xxxxing jewish religions. And the way the christians and the church ruined so much of our pre-christian history..... it makes me ashamed honestly.

[Mos]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Why wouldn't we? The Persians still call themselves Persian, the Arabs call themselves still Arabs and so do the Libanese, Syrians, and Egyptians etc. So can you tell me why we wouldn't do that? Did we start calling ourselves Romans because there was a powerful empire who conquered us and had the same religion? Or did we start calling ourselves Persians when we were polytheist and the Persians conquered us?

Remember we have spent a great deal of our history under those empires. Given our few years of independence, it's much easier to assimilate living in such conditions. Maybe that would not be the case, but there would be much greater chance that it would. Our Christian faith defined us greatly and set us apart from our neighbours and rulers.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

If we converted to Islam at the early ages, I doubt we would call ourselves Armenians today. We would have assimilated with Persians, Kurds, and incoming Seljuk Turks. Just like Caucasian Albanians assimilated into our population.

Why wouldn't we? The Persians still call themselves Persian, the Arabs call themselves still Arabs and so do the Libanese, Syrians, and Egyptians etc. So can you tell me why we wouldn't do that? Did we start calling ourselves Romans because there was a powerful empire who conquered us and had the same religion? Or did we start calling ourselves Persians when we were polytheist and the Persians conquered us?

[Mos]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

That I think I understand so our only two options were to change our identity to align with Christianity or to change our identity to line up with Islam then perhaps we do have something to thank the Chruch for It has been great in protecting us against the other cancer that is still spreading around the world (aka Islam).

If we converted to Islam at the early ages, I doubt we would call ourselves Armenians today. We would have assimilated with Persians, Kurds, and incoming Seljuk Turks. Just like Caucasian Albanians assimilated into our population.

[Sip]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

In Ottoman times, your identity was determined by your religion. Becoming Islam, was becoming Turk.

That I think I understand so our only two options were to change our identity to align with Christianity or to change our identity to line up with Islam then perhaps we do have something to thank the Chruch for It has been great in protecting us against the other cancer that is still spreading around the world (aka Islam).

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Demonstrably false because there isn't any indication that Armenians had any kind of identity crisis before Christianity. Armenia and Armenians existed and survived (attack after attack after attack) throughout history even prior to the nation converting to Christianity. Weren't the previous pagan beliefs as much a part of their identity then? I think it would be more correct to say that Christianity damaged the Armenian identity. You can't just choose to start history at some arbitrary point and call that true Armenianness. What do you think happened to Armenian traditions that conflicted with Christianity? We kept those because they were part of our identity and culture right?

One would again argue that you're choosing some arbitrary point in history because prior to Paganism and Mythological gods (which Armenians acquired from other cultures), Armenians were monotheists.

Some reading material on religious tolerance in the Ottoman Empire
http://www.globaled.org/nyworld/materials/ottoman/turkish.html

"The success of Ottoman tolerance can most easily be seen in the fact that large Christian and xxxish communities existed in the Ottoman lands until the end of the Empire. Then it was European intervention and European-style nationalism, not internal failure of the system, that destroyed the centuries-long peace between religions that had characterized the Ottoman system."

Oh and far as Istanbul not being Armenian ancestral land, I might point out that one of the oldest companies in the world was started by Avedis Zildjian in the 17th century. He was an alchemist. Most people know the name for the cymbals they manufacture up til this day. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avedis_Zildjian_Company

[Mos]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

You want ME to thank the church for us having worked so hard to preserve the faith and the chruch? Sounds to me like it should be the other way around (not that I had anything to do with any preservation personally). But again you have this implicit assumption that the "faith" was our identity and we preserved it where as it is entirely unclear to me what part of our Christian beliefs are historically of Armenian origin.

Well, I said respect, not thank. It's a bit different. I don't think it's good when Armenians attack the Mother Church. We obviously did have a pre-Christian identity, but you must realise that Christianity has played a key role in our history and our ever evolving identity/culture. We have spilled so much blood just to call ourselves Christians today, our people have made a big sacrifice. Conversion would have been a very easy way out. With such big sacrifices by our nation for our faith, it becomes an important part of our identity and undoubtetly has shaped our history. In Ottoman times, your identity was determined by your religion. Becoming Islam, was becoming Turk.

[Sip]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

... we have lost a lot of blood fighting to preserve our faith and not convert. So at the minimum, you should respect the Armenian church for this fact.

You want ME to thank the church for us having worked so hard to preserve the faith and the chruch? Sounds to me like it should be the other way around (not that I had anything to do with any preservation personally). But again you have this implicit assumption that the "faith" was our identity and we preserved it where as it is entirely unclear to me what part of our Christian beliefs are historically of Armenian origin.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Yeah I understand, but not Istanbul and Western Turkey. that has never been our land. I was just curious to learn, because it seems so odd, to live under Turkish government rule, your country's historic number 1 enemy.

Istanbul is one of the major cities in the world...... I'd go as far as to say that Istanbul is the capital of the world. Just because it's under Turkish rule for the time being doesn't mean that it's a bad place to have real estate.

I wouldn't worry about Armenians in Turkey getting assimilated really..... those that have stood the test of time continue to stand.

[Mher]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

If you're referring to the community in Istanbul, most of them do speak Armenian and are active members in the community, schools and churches. Ask yourself why Hrant Dink chose to live in Turkey... our beef is with the state, not the people. That is also our ancestral land.

Yeah I understand, but not Istanbul and Western Turkey. that has never been our land. I was just curious to learn, because it seems so odd, to live under Turkish government rule, your country's historic number 1 enemy.