Atheism and being Armenian

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Just a question regarding Armenians in Turkey. Not Islamified Armenians of the Genocide or the Hamshentsiner, but regular Christian Armenians. Why do they continue to live in Turkey and why are such a large portion of them so comfortable with assimilation. On wikipedia it says that most of Armenians in Turkey don't even speak Armenian. How can they accept this, understanding what that xxxxing country has done to their people and what it thinks of them?

If you're referring to the community in Istanbul, most of them do speak Armenian and are active members in the community, schools and churches. Ask yourself why Hrant Dink chose to live in Turkey... our beef is with the state, not the people. That is also our ancestral land.

[Siggie]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Our Christian faith has always been integral to the Armenian nation. It helped preserve our culture, literature, and other academics. It served as protector and centre point of Armenian identity. During Ottoman Ampire, converting to Islam was the equivalent to becoming a Turk. That's how people were turkified. There people chose to Turkify rather than stand up and protect their heritage and nation. They are cowards.

Demonstrably false because there isn't any indication that Armenians had any kind of identity crisis before Christianity. Armenia and Armenians existed and survived (attack after attack after attack) throughout history even prior to the nation converting to Christianity. Weren't the previous pagan beliefs as much a part of their identity then? I think it would be more correct to say that Christianity damaged the Armenian identity. You can't just choose to start history at some arbitrary point and call that true Armenianness. What do you think happened to Armenian traditions that conflicted with Christianity? We kept those because they were part of our identity and culture right?

[Mher]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Just a question regarding Armenians in Glendale, CA. Not the Armenian criminals and mafiosi who flourish there, or the rarely-seen political refugee, but regular Armenians who want to feel superior by thoughtlessly criticising others whose circumstances and history and culture they do not understand. Why do they continue to live in America and why are such a large proportion of them so comfortable with assimilation. On Wikipedia it says that most Armenians in America don't even speak Armenian. How can they accept this and still think they have a right to criticise those who are far more Armenian than they will ever be?

the city of glendale, the state of CA, or the USA, never committed the greatest atrocity in history of my race to my people. Living in Southern California, I don't live in a place where there are ultra-nationalists who would love to see me and everyone of my countrymen dead. There is no government that on daily basis tells me that there was no Armenian Genocide. I do not live in a country that is the number one enemy of my nation. Stop trying to be such a arrogant douche. I was simply asking a question, and I cited Wikipedia to clearly show that my knowledge on the subject was limited, and I wanted to learn. Not from a senile, lonely fool like you though, because I have never seen a post by you that is not negative and pessimistic.

[Mher]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

If you're referring to the community in Istanbul, most of them do speak Armenian and are active members in the community, schools and churches. Ask yourself why Hrant Dink chose to live in Turkey... our beef is with the state, not the people. That is also our ancestral land.

Yeah I understand, but not Istanbul and Western Turkey. that has never been our land. I was just curious to learn, because it seems so odd, to live under Turkish government rule, your country's historic number 1 enemy.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Yeah I understand, but not Istanbul and Western Turkey. that has never been our land. I was just curious to learn, because it seems so odd, to live under Turkish government rule, your country's historic number 1 enemy.

Istanbul is one of the major cities in the world...... I'd go as far as to say that Istanbul is the capital of the world. Just because it's under Turkish rule for the time being doesn't mean that it's a bad place to have real estate.

I wouldn't worry about Armenians in Turkey getting assimilated really..... those that have stood the test of time continue to stand.

[Sip]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

... we have lost a lot of blood fighting to preserve our faith and not convert. So at the minimum, you should respect the Armenian church for this fact.

You want ME to thank the church for us having worked so hard to preserve the faith and the chruch? Sounds to me like it should be the other way around (not that I had anything to do with any preservation personally). But again you have this implicit assumption that the "faith" was our identity and we preserved it where as it is entirely unclear to me what part of our Christian beliefs are historically of Armenian origin.

[Mos]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

You want ME to thank the church for us having worked so hard to preserve the faith and the chruch? Sounds to me like it should be the other way around (not that I had anything to do with any preservation personally). But again you have this implicit assumption that the "faith" was our identity and we preserved it where as it is entirely unclear to me what part of our Christian beliefs are historically of Armenian origin.

Well, I said respect, not thank. It's a bit different. I don't think it's good when Armenians attack the Mother Church. We obviously did have a pre-Christian identity, but you must realise that Christianity has played a key role in our history and our ever evolving identity/culture. We have spilled so much blood just to call ourselves Christians today, our people have made a big sacrifice. Conversion would have been a very easy way out. With such big sacrifices by our nation for our faith, it becomes an important part of our identity and undoubtetly has shaped our history. In Ottoman times, your identity was determined by your religion. Becoming Islam, was becoming Turk.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

Demonstrably false because there isn't any indication that Armenians had any kind of identity crisis before Christianity. Armenia and Armenians existed and survived (attack after attack after attack) throughout history even prior to the nation converting to Christianity. Weren't the previous pagan beliefs as much a part of their identity then? I think it would be more correct to say that Christianity damaged the Armenian identity. You can't just choose to start history at some arbitrary point and call that true Armenianness. What do you think happened to Armenian traditions that conflicted with Christianity? We kept those because they were part of our identity and culture right?

One would again argue that you're choosing some arbitrary point in history because prior to Paganism and Mythological gods (which Armenians acquired from other cultures), Armenians were monotheists.

Some reading material on religious tolerance in the Ottoman Empire
http://www.globaled.org/nyworld/materials/ottoman/turkish.html

"The success of Ottoman tolerance can most easily be seen in the fact that large Christian and xxxish communities existed in the Ottoman lands until the end of the Empire. Then it was European intervention and European-style nationalism, not internal failure of the system, that destroyed the centuries-long peace between religions that had characterized the Ottoman system."

Oh and far as Istanbul not being Armenian ancestral land, I might point out that one of the oldest companies in the world was started by Avedis Zildjian in the 17th century. He was an alchemist. Most people know the name for the cymbals they manufacture up til this day. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avedis_Zildjian_Company

[Sip]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

In Ottoman times, your identity was determined by your religion. Becoming Islam, was becoming Turk.

That I think I understand so our only two options were to change our identity to align with Christianity or to change our identity to line up with Islam then perhaps we do have something to thank the Chruch for It has been great in protecting us against the other cancer that is still spreading around the world (aka Islam).

[Mos]

Re: Atheism and being Armenian

That I think I understand so our only two options were to change our identity to align with Christianity or to change our identity to line up with Islam then perhaps we do have something to thank the Chruch for It has been great in protecting us against the other cancer that is still spreading around the world (aka Islam).

If we converted to Islam at the early ages, I doubt we would call ourselves Armenians today. We would have assimilated with Persians, Kurds, and incoming Seljuk Turks. Just like Caucasian Albanians assimilated into our population.