Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

[londontsi]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

What does Garegin being a good manager have to do with 'worker' insubordination?

This what happens when people (the Catholicos or contributors to this thread !!) do not understand the meaning of
a constitution,
law,
procedures,
demarcation of civil and spiritual responsibilities etc.

How can non clerics be accused of insubordination.
They are ordinary folk.
They are governed by the items I already posted.

You have to remember the Catholicos does not ( cannot) rule as a despot.
Also local parisheners are locally "elected", therefore they have constitutional rights and independence to act within it.

[Armanen]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

I am sorry but again you are getting confused between spiritual and “management” issues.
Nobody is contesting the Church or spiritual doctrine of the AAC

This (to me) appears to be a case of the Catholicos overestimating his authority.
In the civil world this happens quite often when workers as a last resort go on strike .



I thought you said the catholicos was a good manager.
A good manager would not have contributed to events to reach to this conclusion.

When workers go on strike managers are always at least partly at fault.

What does Garegin being a good manager have to do with 'worker' insubordination?

[londontsi]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

So now you claim to know Church doctrine better than two sitting Catholicos'?

I am sorry but again you are getting confused between spiritual and “management” issues.
Nobody is contesting the Church or spiritual doctrine of the AAC

This (to me) appears to be a case of the Catholicos overestimating his authority.
In the civil world this happens quite often when workers as a last resort go on strike .

The Holy See has tended to rubber stamp these decisions but it is not a forgone conclusion, and you sure as hell do not shut the door to worshippers and higher ranking clergy!

I thought you said the catholicos was a good manager.
A good manager would not have contributed to events to reach to this conclusion.

When workers go on strike managers are always at least partly at fault.

[Armanen]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

This what happens when people (the Catholicos or contributors to this thread !!) do not understand the meaning of a constitution, law, procedures, demarcation of civil and spiritual responsibilities etc.

A Catholicos has no right to impose a priest upon a community, since the catholicos does not normally know the candidate but the locals (taghagans should ) know him.
Taghagans recommend, put forward his name and the Catholicos “approves” (rubber stamping).

Not the other way round.

So now you claim to know Church doctrine better than two sitting Catholicos'? The Holy See has tended to rubber stamp these decisions but it is not a forgone conclusion, and you sure as hell do not shut the door to worshippers and higher ranking clergy!

[londontsi]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

Armenian church of Switzerland closed its doors

April 11, 2011 | 19:12

Doors of the Armenian Church in Geneva were closed. The Church Council decided to close the church on Sunday.

However, a reliable source told Armenian News-NEWS.am, church closed its doors not to let in the believers and a delegation from Etchmiadzin by Fr. Abel Manoukian.

Earlier the Armenian Apostolic Church Council of Switzerland has repeatedly sent letters to the Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin that rejected formation of a diocese in Switzerland and reaffirmed Fr. Abel Manoukian as priest. In 1990s Church Council of Switzerland asked the head of Armenian Apostolic Church, Catholicos Vazgen I to transform an Armenian community to a diocese. In 1992 the diocese was formed.

After the changes in council’s leadership, the Church Council rejects instruction of Vazgen I and then under Catholicos Karekin II invites Fr. Abel Manoukian to head the church. Karekin II condemned the move, which the church considered illegal, and banned Fr. Manoukian from serving in Switzerland. His decision was also rejected.

Under the recent decision of His Holiness Karekin II, Fr. Mesrop Parsamyan was appointed vicar of the Armenian diocese of Switzerland. According to some reports, Abel Manoukian closed the doors of Geneva’s church because of Etchmiadzin delegation and believers who came to attend the liturgy.

There are around 2000 Armenians residing in Geneva, part of them opposed Etchmiadzin’s decision. However, this position is presented as if it was decision of the entire Armenian community of Switzerland.

The Church Council says they have made such decision, as Etchmiadzin will take control of money belonging to community and diocese. As to closed doors of the church, the Council claims they wanted to avoid tension in community.

Etchmiadzin dismissed reports on taking control of money, while decision to appoint a vicar is aimed at organizing religious life of the community.

http://news.am/eng/news/54926.html

So, they refuse the edicts of 2 Catholicos, they refuse to open the doors for worshippers and for high ranking clergy from the Mother See, and they claim to speak for the whole community. These people must think they are part of the Armenian Evangelical Church, cause that's not how the AAC works, and it isn't going to fly for too long.

This what happens when people (the Catholicos or contributors to this thread !!) do not understand the meaning of a constitution, law, procedures, demarcation of civil and spiritual responsibilities etc.

A Catholicos has no right to impose a priest upon a community, since the catholicos does not normally know the candidate but the locals (taghagans should ) know him.
Taghagans recommend, put forward his name and the Catholicos “approves” (rubber stamping).

Not the other way round.

[Armanen]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

Armenian church of Switzerland closed its doors

April 11, 2011 | 19:12

Doors of the Armenian Church in Geneva were closed. The Church Council decided to close the church on Sunday.

However, a reliable source told Armenian News-NEWS.am, church closed its doors not to let in the believers and a delegation from Etchmiadzin by Fr. Abel Manoukian.

Earlier the Armenian Apostolic Church Council of Switzerland has repeatedly sent letters to the Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin that rejected formation of a diocese in Switzerland and reaffirmed Fr. Abel Manoukian as priest. In 1990s Church Council of Switzerland asked the head of Armenian Apostolic Church, Catholicos Vazgen I to transform an Armenian community to a diocese. In 1992 the diocese was formed.

After the changes in council’s leadership, the Church Council rejects instruction of Vazgen I and then under Catholicos Karekin II invites Fr. Abel Manoukian to head the church. Karekin II condemned the move, which the church considered illegal, and banned Fr. Manoukian from serving in Switzerland. His decision was also rejected.

Under the recent decision of His Holiness Karekin II, Fr. Mesrop Parsamyan was appointed vicar of the Armenian diocese of Switzerland. According to some reports, Abel Manoukian closed the doors of Geneva’s church because of Etchmiadzin delegation and believers who came to attend the liturgy.

There are around 2000 Armenians residing in Geneva, part of them opposed Etchmiadzin’s decision. However, this position is presented as if it was decision of the entire Armenian community of Switzerland.

The Church Council says they have made such decision, as Etchmiadzin will take control of money belonging to community and diocese. As to closed doors of the church, the Council claims they wanted to avoid tension in community.

Etchmiadzin dismissed reports on taking control of money, while decision to appoint a vicar is aimed at organizing religious life of the community.

http://news.am/eng/news/54926.html

So, they refuse the edicts of 2 Catholicos, they refuse to open the doors for worshippers and for high ranking clergy from the Mother See, and they claim to speak for the whole community. These people must think they are part of the Armenian Evangelical Church, cause that's not how the AAC works, and it isn't going to fly for too long.

[londontsi]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

The Catholicos have always been corrupt. They are after all nothing more than men with power.

If that is the case (??)
Does that make it acceptable.
Should we be inhibited from expecting (demanding) a higher standard of behaviour?

[Armanen]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

Funny, I do not see Catholics b*tching about their archbishops wanting to send the money to Rome. You know why? Because all Armenians want to be kings, none want to be the soldiers. Garegin is trying to set up a stricter hierarchy but we have some in the community who stand to lose, so the smear campaign has begun.

And of course some idiot claims the Catholicos has a kid, and the resident idiot jumps on it. Do people believe everything they read on the internet, especially the comments section of an online newspaper? Sad.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

there was an assassination in 1930 in New York city. Many people in the Middle east and later in Armenia would choose the priesthood because you could eat well (invitations to homes and banquets), have guaranteed income and be treated like a celebrity. With that status some of them have easily become abusive if their expected fees (for baptisms, weddings or deaths) are not provided. I have witnessed this myself. There would be those who would enter the priesthood on condition of non-celibacy , in order to get the "best of both worlds" -- a stable life with a good income and a wife and family

Eating well and gossip was high on Armenian clergy's agenda in Istanbul in the 19th century

I believe the assassination was by an Armenian if I'm not mistaken.

[lampron]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

When did this start (or rather re-start). Is it a post independence thing?

I dont think people became Armenian priests for an easy life in the 1920s or 1930s - and you were almost as likely to be shot in NY for being one as in Armenia (an exaggeration for effect, I know that the Communists even murdered the Catholicos).

there was an assassination in 1930 in New York city. Many people in the Middle east and later in Armenia would choose the priesthood because you could eat well (invitations to homes and banquets), have guaranteed income and be treated like a celebrity. With that status some of them have easily become abusive if their expected fees (for baptisms, weddings or deaths) are not provided. I have witnessed this myself. There would be those who would enter the priesthood on condition of non-celibacy , in order to get the "best of both worlds" -- a stable life with a good income and a wife and family

Eating well and gossip was high on Armenian clergy's agenda in Istanbul in the 19th century