Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

I believe it is the idiots that sit on the Church council in Geneva who are stiring up controversy, not the Catholicos as you seem to be implying. Why is it so hard for you to understand that the church council acted out of line as well as the local priest by shutting the doors and refusing entry to local worshippers and high ranking clergy from the Holy See?

Do you even know anyone in Switzerland? Or is your "belief" simply a display of knee-jerk prejudice (or knee-jerk protection of your vested interests)? The people who are closing the church to Karekin's imported "clergy" ARE the local worshippers as a last resort against Karekin's blatant refusal to follow the wishes of Switzerland's Armenian community regarding the future of their church.

[Armanen]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

Then challenge the facts I am stating.

I brought up a number of issues which you did not address. That this is not something new, that the people behind this have other intentions, and that the Catholicos may be in the process of revamping certain things in the Church. Is he doing it via the proper channels, it may seem not, but that's likely what he is doing.

The only facts you are stating is that the Church Council has powers of its own.

Before that lets clarify what he is not.
He is not God. He was not sent or appointed by God.
He holds the highest office of the AAC, elected by his peers which includes people such as Archbishop Navasard Kchoyan.
Like any head of an institution his role is to lead his institution based on the “codes of conduct” of of his role,
avoid controversy which will undermine the faith and trust the people have in him and the church.
Uphold the traditional values of the church and spread the message to raise the spiritual awareness of the people. etc. etc.
Yes, he is the SPIRITUAL head of the AAC
He is not the chief administrator of the local parishes nor the Head Banker.

Did anyone here say he was appointed by God or infallible? So why are you bringing this up?
I believe it is the idiots that sit on the Church council in Geneva who are stiring up controversy, not the Catholicos as you seem to be implying. Why is it so hard for you to understand that the church council acted out of line as well as the local priest by shutting the doors and refusing entry to local worshippers and high ranking clergy from the Holy See? And I like how you failed to mention that in cases where the local parish does not have enough members, they can be subsidized by the Holy See or the next closest parish that can afford it. This is not written in any bylaws of the Church either but it happens, yet I do not see you complaining about it.

It just show how much you know about the church.
You haven't managed to understand the difference between spiritual and civil issues.

I know it quite well, it is sad you have such a rosy view of things. Real world does not work that way.

Heresy refers to spiritual issues not for criticising the catholicos or anybody else for civil issues.
CASH and PROPERTY and (civil) OPINIONS are civil issues.

Sorry, but insulting the Catholicos or his authority can be grounds from getting kicked out of the church, it does not happen often in our church but it has occured. If heresy may not be the correct word.

Contesting the church traditional teaching is heresy.

Individuals do not get “kicked out” of the church. ( you making laws as you go along !).

Clergy can get defrocked for deviating from the church “spiritual” teaching.

See above. Individuals can and have been kicked out from the AAC.

The issues here are not that whether the church (doctrine) is democratic or not.
Nobody is contesting the AAC church doctrine or how that doctrine is “maintained”.

Really? Because you have been contesting the role of the Catholicos and therefore, however indirectly, Church doctrine as well. Also, you have been painting the Church with a very wide brush just because of the actions of a few. So does 1 bad clergyman now equal 10 good ones?

[londontsi]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

Yes, they are subordinate to the Catholicos, but at the same time we should remember he is not an 'infallible' Pope. If there is proof that he is acting outside of his bounds or the doctrine/dogma of the Church, he can be reprimanded and in worst case scenario deposed. If I'm not mistaken, he is not spiritually of a higher rank than any other bishop, he only has jurisdiction over them i.e. Catholicos is not a Holy Order like acolyte, sub-deacon (minor orders), deacon, priest, and bishop (major orders) are.

Yerazhista
With the greatest respect I disagree with you for the following reasons.

The Church council is an elected body within an individual country.

The Church council has a constitution which it has to adhere to.
Incidentally this constitution would have been rubber stamped by the Catholicos of the time.

The constitution is protected by the law of the country.

Any action or challenge for a decision contrary to the constitution can be contested in the LOCAL COURTS.

This is nothing new.

To even suggest the catholicos can walk in and take decisions as he see fit OR

Do you know how many times throughout the history of the AAC the Catholicos has been 'anti-democratic', to use your term? Our church has some democratic features but it is not a democratic institution.

is simply bizarre .

This is where the catholicos ( presumably through his advisors) is wrong and he has contributed to this sad situation.

This is nothing to do ( for me) whether the AAC corrupt or not, although I do not know the ultimate intentions of his decisions.

[londontsi]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

You are putting your own spin on the facts, that's hardly being unbaised.

Then challenge the facts I am stating.

Do you understand the role of the Catholicos?

Yes I do.

Before that lets clarify what he is not.
He is not God. He was not sent or appointed by God.

He holds the highest office of the AAC, elected by his peers which includes people such as Archbishop Navasard Kchoyan.

Like any head of an institution his role is to lead his institution based on the “codes of conduct” of of his role,
avoid controversy which will undermine the faith and trust the people have in him and the church.

Uphold the traditional values of the church and spread the message to raise the spiritual awareness of the people. etc. etc.

He is the HEAD of the Armenian Church!

Yes, he is the SPIRITUAL head of the AAC
He is not the chief administrator of the local parishes nor the Head Banker.

Well you should start to learn because with your views it won't be long before you are kicked out of the Armenian Church for heresy.

It just show how much you know about the church.
You haven't managed to understand the difference between spiritual and civil issues.

Heresy refers to spiritual issues not for criticising the catholicos or anybody else for civil issues.
CASH and PROPERTY and (civil) OPINIONS are civil issues.

Contesting the church traditional teaching is heresy.

Individuals do not get “kicked out” of the church. ( you making laws as you go along !).

Clergy can get defrocked for deviating from the church “spiritual” teaching.
Read the article posted earlier explaining the issues.


The issues here are not that whether the church (doctrine) is democratic or not.
Nobody is contesting the AAC church doctrine or how that doctrine is “maintained”.

Without considering the entities below we are talking cross purposely.

Difference between spiritual and civil issues.
Parish Elections, power and constitutions.
Local (civil) “power” and duties and the “global” church spiritual authority.
Roles of individual entities such as priest, church council, Catholicos etc. etc.

[Armanen]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

I think this is the point that I missed about the article. I think you are very correct Armanen in saying that there is an information war going on inside Armenia basically being NATO vs. everyone else. Maybe the bishop should be reprimanded, maybe not but the fact that I failed to miss (and that you pointed out) is that the motivations for it are coming from - let's just say - 'less than holy' people and organizations.

Right, with the bishop who started this whole thread, I think he should be rebuked and/or kicked out of the Church. Trust me, if enough Armenians demanded that this man be kicked out of the AAC, the Holy See would have no choice. But what is wrong to do is to paint the whole AAC as corrupt based on the actions of the few, which is what some are doing here, either knowingly or thru ignorance.

Yes, they are subordinate to the Catholicos, but at the same time we should remember he is not an 'infallible' Pope. If there is proof that he is acting outside of his bounds or the doctrine/dogma of the Church, he can be reprimanded and in worst case scenario deposed. If I'm not mistaken, he is not spiritually of a higher rank than any other bishop, he only has jurisdiction over them i.e. Catholicos is not a Holy Order like acolyte, sub-deacon (minor orders), deacon, priest, and bishop (major orders) are.

You are correct. The Bishop of Rome gave himself the infallibility only in the 19th century, 1870 to be exact. Prior to that there was no such thing, and even to this day many Catholicos take issue with papal infallibility. From my understadning, the Catholicos is first among equals. So he is equal with the other bishops but at the same time kinda higher than them.

[yerazhishda]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

This is a wider process that has been going on for some time. Are you aware that on his last vist to the US, Garegin got money from the Eastern prelacy and Archbisop. No one made a fuss about that? Now, as political tensions rise in Armenia, as a continued information war is being waged in and against Armenia, all of sudden people come out of the woodworks and proclaim the Church as corrupt. There is an agenda here and it is not a noble one of cleaning the Church from corruption.

I think this is the point that I missed about the article. I think you are very correct Armanen in saying that there is an information war going on inside Armenia basically being NATO vs. everyone else. Maybe the bishop should be reprimanded, maybe not but the fact that I failed to miss (and that you pointed out) is that the motivations for it are coming from - let's just say - 'less than holy' people and organizations.

Do you know how many times throughout the history of the AAC the Catholicos has been 'anti-democratic', to use your term? Our church has some democratic features but it is not a democratic institution.

That's correct, the AAC is not a democratic institution (and considering the likes of some self-hating Armenians, thank God!). It is an Apostolic Church based on Apostolic teachings, the Church Fathers, among other things. The duty of the Church is to uphold the faith of Christianity, not sway with modern/contemporary opinion and please the populace. We are not liberal protestants.

Do you understand the role of the Catholicos? He is the HEAD of the Armenian Church! Any member of the Armenian church from some random worshipper to a member of the church council to a priest IS under his authority as long as they are party of the Armenian Church. So they are subordinate to him in a way. This does not negate the role the Church Council plays, but to say that they are not subordinate to the Catholicos is to diminish the role of the Catholicos. More and more you sound like a Protestant, or someone with an agenda against the Holy See!

Yes, they are subordinate to the Catholicos, but at the same time we should remember he is not an 'infallible' Pope. If there is proof that he is acting outside of his bounds or the doctrine/dogma of the Church, he can be reprimanded and in worst case scenario deposed. If I'm not mistaken, he is not spiritually of a higher rank than any other bishop, he only has jurisdiction over them i.e. Catholicos is not a Holy Order like acolyte, sub-deacon (minor orders), deacon, priest, and bishop (major orders) are.

[Armanen]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

I am not making any assumptions.
I am only referring to your posting, regarding “The Church council decided to close the church “.

I do not fall into traps easily because I am not biased and I am debating using facts.

You are putting your own spin on the facts, that's hardly being unbaised.

There are no anti-Armenian forces involved.
I said earlier, for the events to have reached to this juncture there was a process.
It is the participants who have fallen into the trap, the local church council and his holiness the Catholicos.
The reason, they lacked the most important quality that people in their position should have had, wisdom.

This is a wider process that has been going on for some time. Are you aware that on his last vist to the US, Garegin got money from the Eastern prelacy and Archbisop. No one made a fuss about that? Now, as political tensions rise in Armenia, as a continued information war is being waged in and against Armenia, all of sudden people come out of the woodworks and proclaim the Church as corrupt. There is an agenda here and it is not a noble one of cleaning the Church from corruption.

When there is elected representatives and a constitution, overruling it is anti-democratic and despotic.

Do you know how many times throughout the history of the AAC the Catholicos has been 'anti-democratic', to use your term? Our church has some democratic features but it is not a democratic institution.

The priest does not have rights but has duties.
Spiritual ones through the church hierarchy, local issues, within the community.

The priest is not following his duties to the Church by refusing to leave. If the community wants him to stay there are other ways to go. But closing the church down and not allowing worshipers and high clergy from the Mother See to enter is inviting a lot more trouble for them.

I am sure it wouldn’t have been the priest who closed the church
He does not have such powers,
but the church council has, although it is extremely unusual.
WHY? ( My interpretation)
At the end of the day the church is a physical building, it has a legal owner (church council?). The owner decides.
This is a sad case, there are only losers.

See above. If the church owners and/or council feel like they have been wronged, there are other avenues which are much more constructive.

You are oblivious to the composition and role of the church council.

You have no clue about what the church hierarchy has been trying to do in recent years and are instead parrioting the anti-Catholicos mantras that you've been picking up from the net.

The church council is comprised of non clergy (laymen).
They are elected by the community therefore responsible to the community.
Therefore they are not part of the church hierarchy.
Since they are elected they have rights and obligations, which is defined (stated) within the local constitution.

They do not get involved in spiritual issues only management issues, e.g. finance, repairs, administration etc.
Also selecting (approving) priest etc.

Since the church council does not have any spiritual role it should be clear why the catholicos has “nothing to do“ with the church council.
The Church Council IS NOT part of the church hierarch and therefore not subordinate to the Catholicos.

Do you understand the role of the Catholicos? He is the HEAD of the Armenian Church! Any member of the Armenian church from some random worshipper to a member of the church council to a priest IS under his authority as long as they are party of the Armenian Church. So they are subordinate to him in a way. This does not negate the role the Church Council plays, but to say that they are not subordinate to the Catholicos is to diminish the role of the Catholicos. More and more you sound like a Protestant, or someone with an agenda against the Holy See!

I do not know anything about the Protestant church.
From your postings I would say you probably know more about the Protestant church than the AAC
since you do not seem to know much about the AAC.

Well you should start to learn because with your views it won't be long before you are kicked out of the Armenian Church for heresy.

[londontsi]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

Again, you are making assumptions and falling into the trap laid by these anti-Armenian forces.

I am not making any assumptions.
I am only referring to your posting, regarding “The Church council decided to close the church “.

I do not fall into traps easily because I am not biased and I am debating using facts.

There are no anti-Armenian forces involved.
I said earlier, for the events to have reached to this juncture there was a process.
It is the participants who have fallen into the trap, the local church council and his holiness the Catholicos.
The reason, they lacked the most important quality that people in their position should have had, wisdom.

Who said the Cathlicos is trying to act like a despot?

When there is elected representatives and a constitution, overruling it is anti-democratic and despotic.

Whatever rights the local priest may have,

The priest does not have rights but has duties.
Spiritual ones through the church hierarchy, local issues, within the community.

they do not include closing the church doors to worshippers for the above reasons, nor preventing high ranking clergy from the Holy See from entering.

I am sure it wouldn’t have been the priest who closed the church
He does not have such powers,
but the church council has, although it is extremely unusual.
WHY? ( My interpretation)
At the end of the day the church is a physical building, it has a legal owner (church council?). The owner decides.
This is a sad case, there are only losers.

The AAC is not some f*cking Protestant church with very loose or no hierarchy!

You are oblivious to the composition and role of the church council.

The church council is comprised of non clergy (laymen).
They are elected by the community therefore responsible to the community.
Therefore they are not part of the church hierarchy.
Since they are elected they have rights and obligations, which is defined (stated) within the local constitution.

They do not get involved in spiritual issues only management issues, e.g. finance, repairs, administration etc.
Also selecting (approving) priest etc.

Since the church council does not have any spiritual role it should be clear why the catholicos has “nothing to do“ with the church council.
The Church Council IS NOT part of the church hierarch and therefore not subordinate to the Catholicos.

I do not know anything about the Protestant church.
From your postings I would say you probably know more about the Protestant church than the AAC
since you do not seem to know much about the AAC.

[Armanen]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

How can non clerics be accused of insubordination.
They are ordinary folk.
They are governed by the items I already posted.

You have to remember the Catholicos does not ( cannot) rule as a despot.
Also local parisheners are locally "elected", therefore they have constitutional rights and independence to act within it.

Again, you are making assumptions and falling into the trap laid by these anti-Armenian forces. Who said the Cathlicos is trying to act like a despot?

Whatever rights the local priest may have, they do not include closing the church doors to worshippers for the above reasons, nor preventing high ranking clergy from the Holy See from entering. The AAC is not some f*cking Protestant church with very loose or no hierarchy!

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

How can non clerics be accused of insubordination.
They are ordinary folk.
They are governed by the items I already posted.

You have to remember the Catholicos does not ( cannot) rule as a despot.
Also local parisheners are locally "elected", therefore they have constitutional rights and independence to act within it.

He obvously thinks he can rule as a despot, with the parisheners treated like they were just tenured peasants. Maybe he can get away with it in Armenia, but it is more difficult to get away with it in the heart of Europe.

He seems to have a track record of doing this. There was also some controversy recently about an Armenian priest in Georgia's Javakh region being removed against the will of his congregation and him being replaced by some unpleasant bigot imported in from Etchmiadzin who then went around harrassing the parishoners. The original priest had founded the church after the fall of the Soviet Union, but once it had got big and rich enough Etchmiadzin wanted full control of it. And last year there was a similar case in India about a similarly unpleasant bigot of a priest being imported in from Etchmiadzin to run an Armenian school, with the pupils eventually going on strike in protest against his disruptive actions at the school.