Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass?

[Armanen]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

Armenian church of Switzerland closed its doors

April 11, 2011 | 19:12

Doors of the Armenian Church in Geneva were closed. The Church Council decided to close the church on Sunday.

However, a reliable source told Armenian News-NEWS.am, church closed its doors not to let in the believers and a delegation from Etchmiadzin by Fr. Abel Manoukian.

Earlier the Armenian Apostolic Church Council of Switzerland has repeatedly sent letters to the Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin that rejected formation of a diocese in Switzerland and reaffirmed Fr. Abel Manoukian as priest. In 1990s Church Council of Switzerland asked the head of Armenian Apostolic Church, Catholicos Vazgen I to transform an Armenian community to a diocese. In 1992 the diocese was formed.

After the changes in council’s leadership, the Church Council rejects instruction of Vazgen I and then under Catholicos Karekin II invites Fr. Abel Manoukian to head the church. Karekin II condemned the move, which the church considered illegal, and banned Fr. Manoukian from serving in Switzerland. His decision was also rejected.

Under the recent decision of His Holiness Karekin II, Fr. Mesrop Parsamyan was appointed vicar of the Armenian diocese of Switzerland. According to some reports, Abel Manoukian closed the doors of Geneva’s church because of Etchmiadzin delegation and believers who came to attend the liturgy.

There are around 2000 Armenians residing in Geneva, part of them opposed Etchmiadzin’s decision. However, this position is presented as if it was decision of the entire Armenian community of Switzerland.

The Church Council says they have made such decision, as Etchmiadzin will take control of money belonging to community and diocese. As to closed doors of the church, the Council claims they wanted to avoid tension in community.

Etchmiadzin dismissed reports on taking control of money, while decision to appoint a vicar is aimed at organizing religious life of the community.

http://news.am/eng/news/54926.html

So, they refuse the edicts of 2 Catholicos, they refuse to open the doors for worshippers and for high ranking clergy from the Mother See, and they claim to speak for the whole community. These people must think they are part of the Armenian Evangelical Church, cause that's not how the AAC works, and it isn't going to fly for too long.

[londontsi]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

Armenian church of Switzerland closed its doors

April 11, 2011 | 19:12

Doors of the Armenian Church in Geneva were closed. The Church Council decided to close the church on Sunday.

However, a reliable source told Armenian News-NEWS.am, church closed its doors not to let in the believers and a delegation from Etchmiadzin by Fr. Abel Manoukian.

Earlier the Armenian Apostolic Church Council of Switzerland has repeatedly sent letters to the Mother See of Holy Etchmiadzin that rejected formation of a diocese in Switzerland and reaffirmed Fr. Abel Manoukian as priest. In 1990s Church Council of Switzerland asked the head of Armenian Apostolic Church, Catholicos Vazgen I to transform an Armenian community to a diocese. In 1992 the diocese was formed.

After the changes in council’s leadership, the Church Council rejects instruction of Vazgen I and then under Catholicos Karekin II invites Fr. Abel Manoukian to head the church. Karekin II condemned the move, which the church considered illegal, and banned Fr. Manoukian from serving in Switzerland. His decision was also rejected.

Under the recent decision of His Holiness Karekin II, Fr. Mesrop Parsamyan was appointed vicar of the Armenian diocese of Switzerland. According to some reports, Abel Manoukian closed the doors of Geneva’s church because of Etchmiadzin delegation and believers who came to attend the liturgy.

There are around 2000 Armenians residing in Geneva, part of them opposed Etchmiadzin’s decision. However, this position is presented as if it was decision of the entire Armenian community of Switzerland.

The Church Council says they have made such decision, as Etchmiadzin will take control of money belonging to community and diocese. As to closed doors of the church, the Council claims they wanted to avoid tension in community.

Etchmiadzin dismissed reports on taking control of money, while decision to appoint a vicar is aimed at organizing religious life of the community.

http://news.am/eng/news/54926.html

So, they refuse the edicts of 2 Catholicos, they refuse to open the doors for worshippers and for high ranking clergy from the Mother See, and they claim to speak for the whole community. These people must think they are part of the Armenian Evangelical Church, cause that's not how the AAC works, and it isn't going to fly for too long.

This what happens when people (the Catholicos or contributors to this thread !!) do not understand the meaning of a constitution, law, procedures, demarcation of civil and spiritual responsibilities etc.

A Catholicos has no right to impose a priest upon a community, since the catholicos does not normally know the candidate but the locals (taghagans should ) know him.
Taghagans recommend, put forward his name and the Catholicos “approves” (rubber stamping).

Not the other way round.

[Armanen]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

This what happens when people (the Catholicos or contributors to this thread !!) do not understand the meaning of a constitution, law, procedures, demarcation of civil and spiritual responsibilities etc.

A Catholicos has no right to impose a priest upon a community, since the catholicos does not normally know the candidate but the locals (taghagans should ) know him.
Taghagans recommend, put forward his name and the Catholicos “approves” (rubber stamping).

Not the other way round.

So now you claim to know Church doctrine better than two sitting Catholicos'? The Holy See has tended to rubber stamp these decisions but it is not a forgone conclusion, and you sure as hell do not shut the door to worshippers and higher ranking clergy!

[londontsi]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

So now you claim to know Church doctrine better than two sitting Catholicos'?

I am sorry but again you are getting confused between spiritual and “management” issues.
Nobody is contesting the Church or spiritual doctrine of the AAC

This (to me) appears to be a case of the Catholicos overestimating his authority.
In the civil world this happens quite often when workers as a last resort go on strike .

The Holy See has tended to rubber stamp these decisions but it is not a forgone conclusion, and you sure as hell do not shut the door to worshippers and higher ranking clergy!

I thought you said the catholicos was a good manager.
A good manager would not have contributed to events to reach to this conclusion.

When workers go on strike managers are always at least partly at fault.

[Armanen]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

I am sorry but again you are getting confused between spiritual and “management” issues.
Nobody is contesting the Church or spiritual doctrine of the AAC

This (to me) appears to be a case of the Catholicos overestimating his authority.
In the civil world this happens quite often when workers as a last resort go on strike .



I thought you said the catholicos was a good manager.
A good manager would not have contributed to events to reach to this conclusion.

When workers go on strike managers are always at least partly at fault.

What does Garegin being a good manager have to do with 'worker' insubordination?

[londontsi]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

What does Garegin being a good manager have to do with 'worker' insubordination?

This what happens when people (the Catholicos or contributors to this thread !!) do not understand the meaning of
a constitution,
law,
procedures,
demarcation of civil and spiritual responsibilities etc.

How can non clerics be accused of insubordination.
They are ordinary folk.
They are governed by the items I already posted.

You have to remember the Catholicos does not ( cannot) rule as a despot.
Also local parisheners are locally "elected", therefore they have constitutional rights and independence to act within it.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

How can non clerics be accused of insubordination.
They are ordinary folk.
They are governed by the items I already posted.

You have to remember the Catholicos does not ( cannot) rule as a despot.
Also local parisheners are locally "elected", therefore they have constitutional rights and independence to act within it.

He obvously thinks he can rule as a despot, with the parisheners treated like they were just tenured peasants. Maybe he can get away with it in Armenia, but it is more difficult to get away with it in the heart of Europe.

He seems to have a track record of doing this. There was also some controversy recently about an Armenian priest in Georgia's Javakh region being removed against the will of his congregation and him being replaced by some unpleasant bigot imported in from Etchmiadzin who then went around harrassing the parishoners. The original priest had founded the church after the fall of the Soviet Union, but once it had got big and rich enough Etchmiadzin wanted full control of it. And last year there was a similar case in India about a similarly unpleasant bigot of a priest being imported in from Etchmiadzin to run an Armenian school, with the pupils eventually going on strike in protest against his disruptive actions at the school.

[Armanen]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

How can non clerics be accused of insubordination.
They are ordinary folk.
They are governed by the items I already posted.

You have to remember the Catholicos does not ( cannot) rule as a despot.
Also local parisheners are locally "elected", therefore they have constitutional rights and independence to act within it.

Again, you are making assumptions and falling into the trap laid by these anti-Armenian forces. Who said the Cathlicos is trying to act like a despot?

Whatever rights the local priest may have, they do not include closing the church doors to worshippers for the above reasons, nor preventing high ranking clergy from the Holy See from entering. The AAC is not some f*cking Protestant church with very loose or no hierarchy!

[londontsi]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

Again, you are making assumptions and falling into the trap laid by these anti-Armenian forces.

I am not making any assumptions.
I am only referring to your posting, regarding “The Church council decided to close the church “.

I do not fall into traps easily because I am not biased and I am debating using facts.

There are no anti-Armenian forces involved.
I said earlier, for the events to have reached to this juncture there was a process.
It is the participants who have fallen into the trap, the local church council and his holiness the Catholicos.
The reason, they lacked the most important quality that people in their position should have had, wisdom.

Who said the Cathlicos is trying to act like a despot?

When there is elected representatives and a constitution, overruling it is anti-democratic and despotic.

Whatever rights the local priest may have,

The priest does not have rights but has duties.
Spiritual ones through the church hierarchy, local issues, within the community.

they do not include closing the church doors to worshippers for the above reasons, nor preventing high ranking clergy from the Holy See from entering.

I am sure it wouldn’t have been the priest who closed the church
He does not have such powers,
but the church council has, although it is extremely unusual.
WHY? ( My interpretation)
At the end of the day the church is a physical building, it has a legal owner (church council?). The owner decides.
This is a sad case, there are only losers.

The AAC is not some f*cking Protestant church with very loose or no hierarchy!

You are oblivious to the composition and role of the church council.

The church council is comprised of non clergy (laymen).
They are elected by the community therefore responsible to the community.
Therefore they are not part of the church hierarchy.
Since they are elected they have rights and obligations, which is defined (stated) within the local constitution.

They do not get involved in spiritual issues only management issues, e.g. finance, repairs, administration etc.
Also selecting (approving) priest etc.

Since the church council does not have any spiritual role it should be clear why the catholicos has “nothing to do“ with the church council.
The Church Council IS NOT part of the church hierarch and therefore not subordinate to the Catholicos.

I do not know anything about the Protestant church.
From your postings I would say you probably know more about the Protestant church than the AAC
since you do not seem to know much about the AAC.

[Armanen]

Re: Have our spiritual leaders lost their moral compass

I am not making any assumptions.
I am only referring to your posting, regarding “The Church council decided to close the church “.

I do not fall into traps easily because I am not biased and I am debating using facts.

You are putting your own spin on the facts, that's hardly being unbaised.

There are no anti-Armenian forces involved.
I said earlier, for the events to have reached to this juncture there was a process.
It is the participants who have fallen into the trap, the local church council and his holiness the Catholicos.
The reason, they lacked the most important quality that people in their position should have had, wisdom.

This is a wider process that has been going on for some time. Are you aware that on his last vist to the US, Garegin got money from the Eastern prelacy and Archbisop. No one made a fuss about that? Now, as political tensions rise in Armenia, as a continued information war is being waged in and against Armenia, all of sudden people come out of the woodworks and proclaim the Church as corrupt. There is an agenda here and it is not a noble one of cleaning the Church from corruption.

When there is elected representatives and a constitution, overruling it is anti-democratic and despotic.

Do you know how many times throughout the history of the AAC the Catholicos has been 'anti-democratic', to use your term? Our church has some democratic features but it is not a democratic institution.

The priest does not have rights but has duties.
Spiritual ones through the church hierarchy, local issues, within the community.

The priest is not following his duties to the Church by refusing to leave. If the community wants him to stay there are other ways to go. But closing the church down and not allowing worshipers and high clergy from the Mother See to enter is inviting a lot more trouble for them.

I am sure it wouldn’t have been the priest who closed the church
He does not have such powers,
but the church council has, although it is extremely unusual.
WHY? ( My interpretation)
At the end of the day the church is a physical building, it has a legal owner (church council?). The owner decides.
This is a sad case, there are only losers.

See above. If the church owners and/or council feel like they have been wronged, there are other avenues which are much more constructive.

You are oblivious to the composition and role of the church council.

You have no clue about what the church hierarchy has been trying to do in recent years and are instead parrioting the anti-Catholicos mantras that you've been picking up from the net.

The church council is comprised of non clergy (laymen).
They are elected by the community therefore responsible to the community.
Therefore they are not part of the church hierarchy.
Since they are elected they have rights and obligations, which is defined (stated) within the local constitution.

They do not get involved in spiritual issues only management issues, e.g. finance, repairs, administration etc.
Also selecting (approving) priest etc.

Since the church council does not have any spiritual role it should be clear why the catholicos has “nothing to do“ with the church council.
The Church Council IS NOT part of the church hierarch and therefore not subordinate to the Catholicos.

Do you understand the role of the Catholicos? He is the HEAD of the Armenian Church! Any member of the Armenian church from some random worshipper to a member of the church council to a priest IS under his authority as long as they are party of the Armenian Church. So they are subordinate to him in a way. This does not negate the role the Church Council plays, but to say that they are not subordinate to the Catholicos is to diminish the role of the Catholicos. More and more you sound like a Protestant, or someone with an agenda against the Holy See!

I do not know anything about the Protestant church.
From your postings I would say you probably know more about the Protestant church than the AAC
since you do not seem to know much about the AAC.

Well you should start to learn because with your views it won't be long before you are kicked out of the Armenian Church for heresy.