How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

[Siggie]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

This hostility against Christianity has been created in the secular West, with it has come to erosion of family values, national values, modesty, and much more, in favour of this secular-multicultural system of values. xxxs are notably for this. Without Christianity, God knows what kind of human society we would live in. Our system of values would be based on 'an eye of an eye' system of values and so forth. What Jesus did is replace the barbaric notion of 'an eye for an eye' with a system of values based on love and forgiveness. He provides a way of life that we must strive to live by in order to better ourselves and our society. Christianity has also fundamentally defined the Armenian Identity.

Some of my favourite quotes:

“I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.”
― C.S. Lewis

“[To have Faith in Christ] means, of course, trying to do all that He says. There would be no sense in saying you trusted a person if you would not take his advice. Thus if you have really handed yourself over to Him, it must follow that you are trying to obey Him. But trying in a new way, a less worried way. Not doing these things in order to be saved, but because He has begun to save you already. Not hoping to get to Heaven as a reward for your actions, but inevitably wanting to act in a certain way because a first faint gleam of Heaven is already inside you.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

Since the first time these words were used droit des hommes was by a secularist and was adopted by the French revolutianaries I would say a society better than the one today. Monotheistic religions have been used to justify the most horrendous crimes ever committed. How many genocides have been committed in the name of Abrahams god?

Too bad that our system of values today are not based on the bible but on the teachings of great men during the enlightenment. I would say look at the Middle Ages if you want to see how a society looks like with values based on Christianity.

Too bad Christians today and in the past didn't follow jesus' teaching. However they did use god to justify slavery, murder, rape, war, plunder throughout history. I guess that is because Christianity was never created by Jesus but by Paul and the other Church fathers and is based on the morality of their time.

This has always baffled me how people ignore all of these horrendous acts in history (post-NT!) coming from the application of the book to life and cherry pick only the few bits in the book about forgiveness and love. But despite this being what people choose to represent their religion when they are endeavoring to present it in favorable light, when it comes time to apply that belief system to their lives, we see things like in history with the witch trails and the crusades, but even in present day we get employers trying to impose their beliefs on their employees and attempting to deny them basic health benefits of which they do not specifically approve due to their religious beliefs, the boy scouts exclusionary practices whereby we are sending the message to some children that they are not welcome because of their parents beliefs or lack thereof or the child's sexual orientation. Messages of love, tolerance, forgiveness, and kindness to be sure.

[Haykakan]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

"This has always baffled me how people ignore all of these horrendous acts in history "

O cmon Siggie don't you know by now that all those bad things were done by the devil

[KanadaHye]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

It's the xxxs again?

Well not exactly. He's most likely referring to the people who have J3wish heritage, claim to be atheists, denouce Christianity, make fun of the bible yet secretly follow a calendar that states it's the year 5773.

I dare you to look to old pictures from the Caucasus and the Ottoman empire and try to find a difference between an Armenian, Turk, Kurd, Persian etc. The Armenian identity we have today is totally different from the one 100 years ago. Under communism it has changed into something that someone living 100 years ago would never recognise. I would even say that secularism had more influence on the modern Armenian identity than did Christianity. If we would do a survey in Armenia today you would find a very small number of believers and the majority are only Christian in name, because it is a part of their culture.

Well that has a lot to do with Communists via USSR forcing atheism onto the surrounding population. Stalin personally took Armenians as well as other ethnic groups as pet projects to repress and purge Christianity out of the minds of citizens just to ease the imposition of their authoritarian state and its ideals. Funny thing about Christianity.... when people are given the freedom of choice, they choose to put trust in their faith.

Western Armenians on the other hand were free to attend church, practice their culture albeit while absorbing surrounding cultures. Church is part of the community and plays a large role in maintaining the Armenian identity (even if it's primarily due to mingling and gossip)

[KanadaHye]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

This has always baffled me how people ignore all of these horrendous acts in history (post-NT!) coming from the application of the book to life and cherry pick only the few bits in the book about forgiveness and love. But despite this being what people choose to represent their religion when they are endeavoring to present it in favorable light, when it comes time to apply that belief system to their lives, we see things like in history with the witch trails and the crusades, but even in present day we get employers trying to impose their beliefs on their employees and attempting to deny them basic health benefits of which they do not specifically approve due to their religious beliefs, the boy scouts exclusionary practices whereby we are sending the message to some children that they are not welcome because of their parents beliefs or lack thereof or the child's sexual orientation. Messages of love, tolerance, forgiveness, and kindness to be sure.

Nazism is over but I see there are still fans.

As the Pope put it:

I also recall the regime’s attitude to Christian pastors and religious who spoke the truth in love, opposed the Nazis and paid for that opposition with their lives. As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the twentieth century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus to a “reductive vision of the person and his destiny”.

For people who have been using Godwin’s Law for decades to get worked up by this perfectly accurate statement is a bit rich, especially when many have long been throwing the Hitler Youth jibe at a man whose father was a staunch anti-Nazi. As Michael Burleigh wrote the other day:

As a 14-year-old, the future Pope was conscripted into the Hitler Youth, along with the majority of his age cohort. That year, 1941, one of his cousins, who had Down's syndrome, was murdered in the Nazis' monstrous "euthanasia" campaign. As the Nazis ran out of cannon fodder, even young seminarians were drafted into such tasks as manning anti-aircraft batteries, which Ratzinger did in the years before he briefly entered Allied captivity.

It is untrue to call Nazism atheist as such – it had plenty of pagan and New Age mystical beliefs, as well as some nominal elements of Christianity – but the Nazis did despise Christianity. And the decline of Christianity made Nazism more likely, as social Darwinist ideas began to dominate conservative thought, especially in Germany.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ed...ism-and-nazis/
______________________________________________

BTW, it's no coincidence that Germany aided the Ottoman Turks with the Armenian Genocide. They most likely had a role in telling the Turkish administration to kill the Armenian intellectuals and community leaders first.

[Hyreniq]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Well not exactly. He's most likely referring to the people who have J3wish heritage, claim to be atheists, denouce Christianity, make fun of the bible yet secretly follow a calendar that states it's the year 5773.

I think they were Luciferians so were the French revolutionaries, Bolshevik revolutionaries, young Turk revolutionaries and Syrian/Libyan revolutionaries. Lucifer is their God That is why they say allah-ou-akbar when they blowup a mosque or a church or when killing innocent people.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

I think they were Luciferians so were the French revolutionaries, Bolshevik revolutionaries, young Turk revolutionaries and Syrian/Libyan revolutionaries. Lucifer is their God That is why they say allah-ou-akbar when they blowup a mosque or a church or when killing innocent people.

Well for every normal Christian you get ten that are bat xxxx crazy!

Well not exactly. He's most likely referring to the people who have J3wish heritage, claim to be atheists, denouce Christianity, make fun of the bible yet secretly follow a calendar that states it's the year 5773.

Then it shouldn't be too hard for you to provide me with some prove about all of this? A name of list and then some proof that those people are doing what you are accusing them of doing.

Well that has a lot to do with Communists via USSR forcing atheism onto the surrounding population. Stalin personally took Armenians as well as other ethnic groups as pet projects to repress and purge Christianity out of the minds of citizens just to ease the imposition of their authoritarian state and its ideals. Funny thing about Christianity.... when people are given the freedom of choice, they choose to put trust in their faith.

In my city even during the harshest days of Stalin a church was still operating, and even today most people are Christian only in name and love making fun of those people that truly believe. It has less to do with the fact that atheism was forced upon them (which I am 100% against as I am against having any other religion being forced upon people) but more to do with the fact that the church is only there as a cultural thing, like in most European countries today. It has turned into a relic from the past that needs to be maintained for nostalgic values.

How do you come to the conclusion that when people can choose that they choose to believe? Reality shows a very different picture; look at Western Europe where people have the choice and most are starting to chose not to believe in god and all the superstition that it is surrounded with.

Western Armenians on the other hand were free to attend church, practice their culture albeit while absorbing surrounding cultures. Church is part of the community and plays a large role in maintaining the Armenian identity (even if it's primarily due to mingling and gossip)

I agree with you on the fact that Church by most people is being used as a form to get back in touch with the community, especially outside of Armenia.

And the decline of Christianity made Nazism more likely, as social Darwinist ideas began to dominate conservative thought, especially in Germany.

Can you provide some evidence for this, because the only thing that made the rise of Nazism possible was the crash of the German economy and the hyper inflation that followed. Also the same with raise with the regime in Iran, the French revolution etc. It had nothing to do with anything religious or social the only cause of those events is the crash of an economy and how the government handled it.

[Haykakan]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

O KanadaHye so righteos you be. O KanadaHye we stand in awe of thee.
Hey lets makea new anthem lol.
But seriously for every good thing you can say about religioun there ten more bad things you cant ignore. Whether it is genocidal wars based on religious beliefs or simply a alter boy giving a bj on a friday afternoon- religion inevitably screws everyone involved.

[Siggie]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Nazism is over but I see there are still fans.

What part of what I said was untrue? You just want to compare me to a Nazi without actually addressing any of the content of my posts? I don't think so. Who are you? A Fox News commentator?
Were there not atrocities committed in the name of the OT God and Christ? Are some of the teachings in the bible not immoral? Affirmative in both cases; what I said is true.

The NT teaches that we are inherently evil in nature and accepting Christ is the path to salvation and everything else can be forgiven. Is this right? Babies are evil? Should any act be forgiven if the the person "accepts Christ"? Shouldn't deeds and acts be more important than choosing to believe in that god? A child molester or murderer and lifetime criminal can repent on their deathbed, accept Christ, pray for forgiveness, and be absolved of his sins and go to heaven, but an indigenous tribesman who has never heard of Christ or a J3wish philanthropist would go to hell?

It gives Heaven and Hell to instill fear and compel obedience. How is a value system based on threats and fear good?

The bible teaches that our paths are predetermined and our success and failures are part of God's plan thereby sending the message that we are not responsible for ourselves. What about self-determination and personal responsibility?

It teaches blind obedience. Look at the Abraham and Issac story! It teaches BLIND obedience of authority! What if Abraham had refused to obey an unjust God? Had stood up to God, sacrificed himself to do what is right, and protected the innocent? Isn't that a better message?

It rejects inquiry and scientific findings if they conflict with doctrine. Religion has stifled scientific progress. Despite overwhelming evidence that abstinence only education is not working in Africa to slow or halt the spread of AIDS, because of Christian doctrine, we continue with abstinence only programs to the detriment of those people. It has interfered with the very promising stem cell research which would do far faaaaaaaaaaaaar more to alleviate suffering than any Christian charity has ever done. While Mother Theresa watched the diseased suffer and felt that that misery and suffering was good for driving them closer to god, the discoveries from these lines of research could actually provide a cure.

And let's look at the god portrayed in the bible... He does show some very interesting human traits that suggest that it was entirely conceived by and written by man.

Desire. Jealousy. Anger. Violence. Regret. Vengeance. Deceit. Dishonesty/Breaking promises. Unjust; dealing out the maximum punishment. Insecurity - always needs to be worshiped and feared. Favoritism. Sexism. Being bigoted. Indifferent to suffering. Being persuaded to change his mind. Boastful and bragging about how enemies will be treated. Being destructive and destroying his own creations. Obsession with sex and sexuality. Irrational and has mood swings. Desires to dominate and be obeyed. Cruelty towards animals.

This is the ideal model for morality?! These are desirable traits? Does this sound like a good, benevolent, merciful god or an insane and capricious tyrant?


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Also, you didn't reply to my request that you provide some evidence to support what you're saying or explain how bones from creatures that didn't yet exist came to make impressions in rock or sediment.

http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php/19867-How-Much-of-the-Bible-Must-Be-Historical-to-Believe?p=337631&viewfull=1#post337631

[Mos]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

I would say look at the history of Christianity in the West to see why there is so much hostility against Christianity. I think the people in the West got tired of the religious wars, prosecution etc.
Family values for the most part in the West haven't seen that much of a change except people have gotten the freedom to chose what they think is the best for them. The value is still there the only difference is that people now have the choice what they want and can do with their life.

No family values has definitely been hit and this has been happening with increasing secularism and increasing liberalism. In Russia, for instance, couples have numerous "partners" and often times just marry in their 30s and buy a dog, and that's it.

when Europe was really Christian, national values did not exist I would advise you to go and read some more about how Westerners saw their countries. I would say that the opposite has happened with the withdrawl of Christianity people needed to find something else to identify themselves with, and that was the nation. Look at the French revolution for example.
modesty, and much more,
Christianity is ùulticultural at its core. Go and look at its begins and when Christianity we know as today was formed then you will see how multicultural it really is. I find it funny to see Armenians rage against multiculturalism, because Armenians have always lived in multicultural societies. Or is it the new cool thing to do on the internet?
It's the xxxs again?

Well in our case, religion and national identity go together. One doesn't exclude the other. Our religion is part of our national identity and it has no doubt been crucial in shaping and preserving it. Multiculturalism is dangerous to our nation because with fragile demographics, we need to focus on strengthening our identity and culture not giving way to foreign cultures that would change our society into something else.

J3ws are indeed pushing multiculturalism in Europe: http://www.europeanxxxishfund.org/in...vember_6_2008/

Since the first time these words were used droit des hommes was by a secularist and was adopted by the French revolutianaries I would say a society better than the one today. Monotheistic religions have been used to justify the most horrendous crimes ever committed. How many genocides have been committed in the name of Abrahams god?

More people have died as a result of Communism, Nazism, and such non-religious/secular ideologies than by Christianity. As I said before though, "In the end, you can't use the failures of some churches throughout history to invalidate the Christian faith. "

Too bad that our system of values today are not based on the bible but on the teachings of great men during the enlightenment. I would say look at the Middle Ages if you want to see how a society looks like with values based on Christianity.

Our system of values are greatly influenced by the fundamental teachings of Christianity. The "great men of the enlightenment" didn't invent things out of the air, they are also influenced by this system in one way or another. And I repeat once again, you can't use the failures of the Catholic Church for example during some period of time to invalidate the Christian faith. It doesn't work that way.

Too bad Christians today and in the past didn't follow jesus' teaching. However they did use god to justify slavery, murder, rape, war, plunder throughout history. I guess that is because Christianity was never created by Jesus but by Paul and the other Church fathers and is based on the morality of their time.

Tell me how Jesus's teachings specifically justify those things? Jesus doesn't talk about murdering your enemy, but loving him. He talks about the importance of helping the poor not plundering them. And so forth.

So did Islam, Zoroastrianism and our own pagan religion. I dare you to look to old pictures from the Caucasus and the Ottoman empire and try to find a difference between an Armenian, Turk, Kurd, Persian etc. The Armenian identity we have today is totally different from the one 100 years ago. Under communism it has changed into something that someone living 100 years ago would never recognise. I would even say that secularism had more influence on the modern Armenian identity than did Christianity. If we would do a survey in Armenia today you would find a very small number of believers and the majority are only Christian in name, because it is a part of their culture.

Identity changes over time, but core elements stay the same. We still live in a conservative, christian society with culture/values that we have passed down from our nation down the history. Christianity still plays a big role in Armenian society, and the Armenian Church is often the center of Armenian communities. A lot of people, religious or not religious, still have respect for the church and the role that our religion has played in our identity. The Armenian Church is at the cornerstone of our nation and identity.

[Haykakan]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Yes Mos we know that chrystianity cannot be blamed for anything bad that was done because of it nor by it directly since everyone knows -the devile did those bad things. How long can humanity buy this good cop/bad cop bs for? One of the biggest failings of the humanity is the inability to heed the lessons of the past and not to repeat the same mistakes in the future. Be it religion, racism, sexism..people learn right from wrong the hard way but then they forget and have to learn it all over again the hard way.