armenian revolutionary federation (tashnagtsootyoon)

[xBaron Dants]

parev parev!

as you may have guessed, i'm a new poster here, though i've been reading for a couple of weeks.

alright, to kick things off with a little controversy, i'd like to ask you the following question. does the tashnagtsootyoon still have reason to be alive?

alright, now before i get attacked for being anti-patriotic or whatever, let me explain my reasons for asking this question.
it's become pretty obvious that the ARF plays a bigger role in the diaspora than it does in armenia. I won't deny it, they have done positive things, especially for the genocide issue (though sometimes using the wrong means). the problem however is, the ARF in no way promotes unity among armenians. how many times have we heard "yeté tashag ches, hay ches" or other crap like that?

also, the ARF is a political party in armenia (although most of it is run by diasporans). should members of the diaspora have any say about politics in armenia? notice that i am not talking about having an opinion. but should we be able to take decisions (as diasporans) of which we will not suffer the consequences, and that will affect the daily lives of all those living in armenia?

alright, that's it for my first post...hope it's clear enough! :?

[Anonymouse]

I'm a member of the Armenian Socialist Labor Party. Wanna join?

[xBaron Dants]

as tempting as it is . last thing we need is a new party.. u'd think we're trying to break records here.
wouldn't shock me if somebody came up with the anti-multi-party party. I guess it comes with the transition from the soviet system, and the many parties in armenia will eventually dissapear with the new alliances being created. In the diaspora though, wouldn't the merger of all armenian associations into one big organization be beneficial for the diaspora and especially for the motherland? here in montreal, everybody with a cause is opening up a new organization, instead of joining existing ones.

Imagine the eradication of all those parties and organizations (in the diaspora), and the creation of the Pan-Armenian Organization. it can only do us good...people actually working TOGETHER for armenia, instead of their own interests...

[vrej]

Of course Tashnagtzootyoon still has a reason to be alive... one of the only things keeping the diasporan armenians alive is the ARF, with homenetmen, yeridasartagan, Hamazkayin, Hye Tad, ARS... and within Armenia, ARF plays a very large role in many things...

We have Artzakh today thanks to the ARF...
THE ARF IS THE ONLY POLITICAL PARTY WHO'S ROOT GOALS HAVE NOT BEEN LOST SINCE IT'S ESTABLISHMENT!
and that is A FREE, LIBERATED, AND WHOLE ARMENIA... and until we do not get all this we need tashnagtzootyoon...

I am tashnagtzagan, i dont believe in the saying that if your not tashnag your not armo.. and this is not what the ARF promotes either. i beleive we are all armenians, but we all just have different ways of approaching problems.

Thinking of ending one of the oldest among the political parties is nonesence, the ARF knows what armenia needs, it has known armenia since before the genocide, it knew armenia during the soviet rule, and it knows armenia the most today!

[Anonymouse]

Baron I believe what you just described goes to show you that evey Armenian desires to be leader and that old aadage, every Armenian is a general, holds true to this.

[xBaron Dants]

come on vrej. Artsakh's liberation was not a result of the ARF. nor was armenia's first independance. It is true that it was the tashnag party that declared it, yet only because georgia and azerbaidjan did so. The tashnags, at first, wanted to form a confederation with these two countries.
during the first independance, armenia was suffering from famine and epiedmics. More territory was being lost to turkey with every passing treaty and another turkish attack was imminent. Why did the tashnags then still ignore the bolshkeviks' call to join them? was it worth being in charge even though the demise of armenia was so clear?

ANYWHO! i am not talking about Hay Tad and all. What i am saying is should the youth be necessarily affiliated with a political party? wouldn't it be much more normal if hay tad included members of all organizations? The name of the party shows its irrelevance. Hay HEGHAPOGHAGAN tashnagtsootyoon. Inch heghapoghootyoon? there is no longer a need for a revolution, armenia is now independant. of course, though i speak of the tashnagtsootyoon, the same thing goes for the ramgavars. we do not need AZADAKROOTYOON.

[vrej]

Ok Mr. Dantz i suggest you study Artzakh before you tell me the liberation of it was not the result of ARF. The ARF pushed for the Armed struggle of Artzakh and preached the need for Artzakh's liberation, if it wasn't for the ARF to stand for Artzakh then even after it's liberation it would have been given back to the azeri's in no time by the Turk Derbedrossian. I am not saying that only ARF faught for artzakh, all armenian faught for it, and it was to benefit alll armenians, but the need for it's liberation was preached by the ARF.

Moving on to Armenia's first independance. Yes the Tashnag party declared the may 28 independence in 1918, and if you study the history of it, the ARF also did the work of recruiting and training all volunteer armenian men to fight in the divisions during the defense of the Armenian lands. Thus they were the ones who initiated the defense and then declared independence. The explanation is not very specific for its the jist of it.

Comming to your point about the bolsheviks... we wanted freedom not oppression again. when the soviets came into power in Armenia anyway they made it easier for the turk, they just handed our lands to them. (artzakh, nakhichevan) It was ARF that continued to preach a free, and independent Armenia, and was againt the soviet takeover in Armenia, and ARF was the one who continued to use the yerakooyn and beleived and preached that one day we will be free again. I could continue with more details that show how much of a great role ARF played for Armenia.

Just a reminder i am not writing this in order to devalue any non - ARF armenian, im just speaking the truth in order to defend the pride and reputation of a political party that has been around for 113 years.

moving on,

ANYWHO! i am not talking about Hay Tad and all. What i am saying is should the youth be necessarily affiliated with a political party? wouldn't it be much more normal if hay tad included members of all organizations? The name of the party shows its irrelevance.

to be a part of hay tad and work for them you dont need to be a member of ARF first off, and as the name says it is for all armenians even though its a branch of ARF. It is very important for youth to be affiliated in a political party, youth is the future of our country and they should know how to continue the work their predisesors have started. the youth orginzation of ARF does just that.

Hay HEGHAPOGHAGAN tashnagtsootyoon. Inch heghapoghootyoon? there is no longer a need for a revolution, armenia is now independant. of course, though i speak of the tashnagtsootyoon, the same thing goes for the ramgavars. we do not need AZADAKROOTYOON.

eench heghapokhootyoon? eench Azadakrootyoon? well buddy you obviousely don't see that big chunck of land that is under turkish territory, on which your anscestors once lived.. those lands are yours and mine, and are not liberated yet, and as i said ARF is the one party who till this day since its creation believes in a whole, independent, and free Armenia, and Revolution will continue untill we reach our goals.

[Andromida806]

And once again !!!!! Vrej has 'Laid the smacketh down'

[xBaron Dants]

parevner!

ok, first off, do not in aaaaaany way think that i would even try to discredit what the ARF (or the ramgavars or the hnchaks for that matter) has done leading up to the glorious victory of Sardarabad. But, as painful as it is, we must all admit that Armenia was not ready for independance at that time. Sure, georgia was independant, yet it had germany's support, while azerbaidjan had their older turkish brothers looking over them. Would armenia be able to survive on its own while being in a total economic turmoil? Turkey was more than ready to attack, and in all honesty, armenia's then famine-stricken population would most probably not be able to face it this time. It must also be remembered that the bolsheviks were hoping for a communist turkey also, and were sending massive military aid to Turkey for its war against Greece. Who did the ARF government rely on to back us up? the allies (France, GB, USA). did we not notice that turkey would be a bigger priority for them? That they would rather freeze the communist expansion at the borders of Turkey?

Also, you say that the ARF was in charge of gathering volunteers for the army. If you are talking after independance, that is, of course, true: as the government, it was their responsibility to set up a national army. If you are talking about before the independance, then once again, I, like any other armenian, have full respect and admiration and pride towards the revolutionary movements that freed us from the turks.

Basically, as sweet as the dream of independance was, due to the new situation created by the aftermath of WW1 and by the russian revolution, it was destined to fail without assistance, which could have only been provided by bolshevik russia.

Now, during the soviet years, the ARF was not much help to Armenia. Still pushing for independance, they worked alongside the CIA in fields such as spying. Once again, had Armenia reached independance before the fall of the USSR, what good would have come out of it? I know, the very word "independance" is sweet, but we can't always make decisions based on what the heart says. So, had Armenia been independant in say 1967. What would we have done? How would we beat the Red Army? With our own? Armenian soldiers were already part of the red army. Would the USSR have allowed it? Would the loyal american allies come to our rescue like they did in 1918? Or would we trust our new capitalist ally, Turkey?

Also, although freedom of speech was non-existant (especially during shoon stalin's days) and even though we lost Artsakh and Nakhitchevan (once again because of that shoon stalin), Armenia was in a very well off state during the soviet years. Independance would have dropped us in a desolate state, deprived of an army and in economic turmoil.

Another action that the ARF has committed with which i will never be able to agree, is the creation of the holy see of antelias. why? why create a separation between our church, the ONLY thing that has held us together, our national identity? Not only that, who can justify the assassination of USA archbishop dourian, by an armenian, in the middle of a church service?

now, let's move on to Artsakh. How was the ARF, non-existant in the soviet regime, able to start the armenian uprising? the uprisings began in 1988, while armenia was still part of the USSR. The main promoter of the Artsakh liberation was a comittee headed by Vazgen Sargsyan and many others, of which....yep....Levon Ter Petrossian. Now, I will also agree with you that in the end of his term, LTP seemed to be waay too generous to Azerbaidjan in regards to Artsakh. However, the point i'm trying to make is that he was a very big supporter of Artsakh's liberation, even 3 years before the independance of Armenia, when the ARF wasn't even around in armenia.

About the Hay Tad, no one in their right mind can disagree that their priority is a veeeeery important one. What i was saying is that it should be an organization headed by armenians from all backgrounds, for it miraculously happens to be one cause that all armenians seem to agree about. Sure, hay tad is technically for armenians of all organizations. but during an april 24 ceremony in montreal, one Hay Tad representative said "havakvadz enk menk, tashnagtsootyan zavagnere" or something of the like....oops. And no, this won't shy me from being involved. I am in no ways the anti-tashnag. I do plan on getting involved in a year or two and work on the recognition of the genocide, and eventually the repatriation of Moush, Kars, Ardahan that, contrary to what you implied, i have NOT FORGOTTEN.

And finally, to get back to the initial point i was trying to make (as the tashnagtsootyoon was merely an example out of so many organizations), would you please agree with me that the creation of ONE armenian organization in the diaspora would be beneficial to us all? Instead of each organization raising 10 dollars each to fix potholes in armenia, we would be able to unite our forces and invest in armenia's education, or health service, and aim to make a real impact, instead of aiming to say "mer gazmagerbootyan shinadz (sarkadz) doone, irents gazmagerbootyan shinadz (sarkadz) doonen aveli medz e".

And i am in no way trying to "lay the smack down" on anybody, and if somebody does indeed "lay the smack down" on me, i will be more than willing to accept my errors, as this is in no way a competition, just a discussion.

Pleasure talking to you vrej, despite our differences

and we at least agree that armenian music is the best one around

[Anonymouse]

This thread is exactly how Armenians are, they can never agree, and they are all right and they always bicker about party politics.

Will there ever be a time when there will be sacrifice?