Angry Muslims!

[Anonymouse]

Re: Angry Muslims!

Oh please, those caricatures are rather offensive. As to Islam, I have some muslim friends, as you can imagine they didn't rush to blow up buildings of kill anyone. They were just angry.
The problem is, we don't really know who is behind the materials that's potentially aimed to give green light for actions of more fanatical followers of islam. I just wonder if the anonymous caricaturist is named something like moisha rabinovich (xxxish in other words).

I don't know where you come from, but in my world, I dont believe in restricting the speech of others. This isn't about your friends, but it's about Muslims in general. Many Muslims reacted with irrational exhuberance, not characteristic of a rational mindset. The fanaticism with which Islam inculcates most of its followers surpasses the fanaticism of other religions.

With that said, there is a concept called freedom of expression. When soccer moms or anyone complains about certain television programming, we encourage them to change the channel. It's all dandy if you want to control the speech and expression of those within your property, much less country. But when is it okay to insist on controlling the speech of someone else, in another country, in someone else' property? Islam has no inherent nature of individuality and property rights, as blossomed in the Western European civilization. With that, my opinion of Islam has changed dramatically over the past year.

With regard to Islam, ever since the Sunni ulama in the 11th century monopolized Islamic jurisprudence and banned the ijtihad, that is when stagnation fell on the Muslim world. And so the dogmatists imposed their own myopic judgements on Islamic jurisprudence, and this has been the norm for over a millenium and explains Islam's inability to bend or curve with times. I have not lived under Islam, but my relatives, and generations prior of my family and people (Armenians), have lived under Islam and know what it is like to be second class. So all this gobbledygook about a religion of peace or love is simply the inanity that the few good apples want to make themselves believe. People are the way they are because of themselves, not because of a religion, or a philosophy, or an ideology, or any other nonsense people cook up.

[Dia]

Re: Angry Muslims!

I don't know where you come from, but in my world, I dont believe in restricting the speech of others. This isn't about your friends, but it's about Muslims in general. Many Muslims reacted with irrational exhuberance, not characteristic of a rational mindset. The fanaticism with which Islam inculcates most of its followers surpasses the fanaticism of other religions.

With that said, there is a concept called freedom of expression. When soccer moms or anyone complains about certain television programming, we encourage them to change the channel. It's all dandy if you want to control the speech and expression of those within your property, much less country. But when is it okay to insist on controlling the speech of someone else, in another country, in someone else' property? Islam has no inherent nature of individuality and property rights, as blossomed in the Western European civilization. With that, my opinion of Islam has changed dramatically over the past year.

With regard to Islam, ever since the Sunni ulama in the 11th century monopolized Islamic jurisprudence and banned the ijtihad, that is when stagnation fell on the Muslim world. And so the dogmatists imposed their own myopic judgements on Islamic jurisprudence, and this has been the norm for over a millenium and explains Islam's inability to bend or curve with times. I have not lived under Islam, but my relatives, and generations prior of my family and people (Armenians), have lived under Islam and know what it is like to be second class. So all this gobbledygook about a religion of peace or love is simply the inanity that the few good apples want to make themselves believe. People are the way they are because of themselves, not because of a religion, or a philosophy, or an ideology, or any other nonsense people cook up.

I am from US. And please do tell me where does freedom of speeech end and distribution of offensive content begin? How would you like it if someone posted offensive content regarding jesus, or whatever it is you believe in? IT's freedom of speech right, everything is allowed right, so I assume that wouldn't bother you? Or how would you like if there was completely free distribution of literature spreading racial and ethnic hatred or calling for action for that matter? I don't think you'd sit calm is something like that popped up in daily press. All I am saying is there is a fine line between freedom of speech and between anarchyic situation.

[Anonymouse]

Re: Angry Muslims!

I am from US. And please do tell me where does freedom of speeech end and distribution of offensive content begin?

I believe in absolute freedom of speech. Who are you to tell someone else what they can or cannot say or publish, especially when it is not only a different country, but also a private publication, in this case private property?

How would you like it if someone posted offensive content regarding jesus, or whatever it is you believe in?

I wouldn't care. It is their right to publish.

IT's freedom of speech right, everything is allowed right, so I assume that wouldn't bother you?

No.

Or how would you like if there was completely free distribution of literature spreading racial and ethnic hatred or calling for action for that matter?

Again, this concept may be hard for you to grasp or understand (and certainly an alien concept to many Muslims), but some of us actually believe in the concept of a free flow of information and ideas. If you don't like it, don't look at it. How hard is that? This isn't Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union. Currently in Europe they can fine, exile, and jail people who express negative views about xxxs or the Holocuast, or express racial pride. I am against that. I believe in unhampered free speech. Unlike you, I do not seek to use force and control the expression of others not only in other countries, but in private spheres.

I don't think you'd sit calm is something like that popped up in daily press.

Oh yes I would.

All I am saying is there is a fine line between freedom of speech and between anarchyic situation.

I disagree. What you're saying is precisely the sort of totalitarian measures governments always enforce to control the free flow of information and expression of people. Stop trying to control people and ideas. You're no better than the Islamist control freaks or the ones in Europe and Washington.

[Dia]

Re: Angry Muslims!

I believe in absolute freedom of speech. Who are you to tell someone else what they can or cannot say or publish, especially when it is not only a different country, but also a private publication, in this case private property?



I wouldn't care. It is their right to publish.



No.



Again, this concept may be hard for you to grasp or understand (and certainly an alien concept to many Muslims), but some of us actually believe in the concept of a free flow of information and ideas. If you don't like it, don't look at it. How hard is that? This isn't Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union. Currently in Europe they can fine, exile, and jail people who express negative views about xxxs or the Holocuast, or express racial pride. I am against that. I believe in unhampered free speech. Unlike you, I do not seek to use force and control the expression of others not only in other countries, but in private spheres.




Oh yes I would.



I disagree. What you're saying is precisely the sort of totalitarian measures governments always enforce to control the free flow of information and expression of people. Stop trying to control people and ideas. You're no better than the Islamist control freaks or the ones in Europe and Washington.

Well it's your right, you have your opinion and I have mine. As to the last statement I am not sure who you're referring to when accusing of being a control freak, but I assume the goverment? Perhaps I did not explain how the "freedom of speech" can touch you on a personal level. Imagine the country you live in excersizes the freedom of speech to spread intolerance towards whatever enthincity you belong to. As a result you, your relatives, children etc. end up in a gasenwagen or stabbed in some dark corner because you have the wrong nose shape. That's what's happening in russia currently, and I don't see how that adds to their image of a democratic country.

[Anonymouse]

Re: Angry Muslims!

Well it's your right, you have your opinion and I have mine. As to the last statement I am not sure who you're referring to when accusing of being a control freak, but I assume the goverment? Perhaps I did not explain how the "freedom of speech" can touch you on a personal level. Imagine the country you live in excersizes the freedom of speech to spread intolerance towards whatever enthincity you belong to. As a result you, your relatives, children etc. end up in a gasenwagen or stabbed in some dark corner because you have the wrong nose shape. That's what's happening in russia currently, and I don't see how that adds to their image of a democratic country.

Freedom of speech is not the same as murder. It's important to distinguish the two in your analogy. We are talking about speech such as stating something, or publishing something.

[Dia]

Re: Angry Muslims!

Freedom of speech is not the same as murder. It's important to distinguish the two in your analogy. We are talking about speech such as stating something, or publishing something.

And yet speech often motivates action, especially in those who tend to blame others for their mischief (kids from problem families, bad economic situation, etc. etc) . Last year there was a shouting case in US, 2 kids killed a girl they thought to be xxxish. Investigation revealed they belonged to "campaign for arian pride" movement. Guess what was being preached there.

[Anonymouse]

Re: Angry Muslims!

And yet speech often motivates action, especially in those who tend to blame others for their mischief (kids from problem families, bad economic situation, etc. etc) . Last year there was a shouting case in US, 2 kids killed a girl they thought to be xxxish. Investigation revealed they belonged to "campaign for arian pride" movement. Guess what was being preached there.

They are entirely two different things. You may not like it, but that is the way it is. Otherwise, we end up into the foggy area of 'thought crime'.

There is no reason to persecute and ban free speech because there is murder. And there is no reason to believe that racist crimes are supposedly worse than any other crime. The stupid laws in Europe and in America about 'hate crimes' suggest precisely that, that somehow murdering someone who is black, xxxish, or gay, is worse than any other form of murder, because the supposed motivating factor was 'hate'. This begs the question, what murder isn't motivated by hate? Furthermore, based on these silly notions the government and liberals of alls stripes rush to restrict speech and limit expression all in the name of 'tolerance' and by pretending or at least trying to blur the boundaries and distinctions between thought and action; whereas thought leads to action, thought is not action and the two are entirely different realms. You seem to be uncomfortable with this notion of allowing people to express unpopular opinions.

[Dia]

Re: Angry Muslims!

They are entirely two different things. You may not like it, but that is the way it is. Otherwise, we end up into the foggy area of 'thought crime'.

There is no reason to persecute and ban free speech because there is murder. And there is no reason to believe that racist crimes are supposedly worse than any other crime. The stupid laws in Europe and in America about 'hate crimes' suggest precisely that, that somehow murdering someone who is black, xxxish, or gay, is worse than any other form of murder, because the supposed motivating factor was 'hate'. This begs the question, what murder isn't motivated by hate? Furthermore, based on these silly notions the government and liberals of alls stripes rush to restrict speech and limit expression all in the name of 'tolerance' and by pretending or at least trying to blur the boundaries and distinctions between thought and action; whereas thought leads to action, thought is not action and the two are entirely different realms. You seem to be uncomfortable with this notion of allowing people to express unpopular opinions.

No I am quite comfortable with expressing unpopular opinions, especially because I often do so.
No matter how much you try to deny, hate crimes happen, it doesn't mean that every crime is a hate crime, but usually most crimes have motives. A hate crime is a crime that does not carry another motive except that of choosing a victim based on ethnic, national background or sexual orientation.
As I said there is a fine line where freedom of speech and thought turn into motivation for action.
But then again, you seem to abstragate from the issue, becos you never think how you would actually feel if this touched you in person.

[Anonymouse]

Re: Angry Muslims!

No I am quite comfortable with expressing unpopular opinions, especially because I often do so.
No matter how much you try to deny, hate crimes happen, it doesn't mean that every crime is a hate crime, but usually most crimes have motives. A hate crime is a crime that does not carry another motive except that of choosing a victim based on ethnic, national background or sexual orientation.
As I said there is a fine line where freedom of speech and thought turn into motivation for action.
But then again, you seem to abstragate from the issue, becos you never think how you would actually feel if this touched you in person.

Who cares? What is the difference between murdering someone who is black or someone who is of your race? Why is a supposed 'hate crime' worse than murder by any other name? Don't be naive.

You keep restating the same thing: "As I said there is a fine line where freedom of speech and thought turn into motivation for action."

And I ask, what is your point? You don't like it change the channel, don't watch, don't pay attention, walk away. Thought and action are different things. This isn't like Tom Cruise in pre-crime in Minority Report.

It seems I keep replying and answering to all your points, yet you avoided all the things I raised and seem to just state the same thing. There is no point in arguing with emotions.

[Կարմիր Բ]

Re: Angry Muslims!

I suppose your two seconds of shining glory by using a complex sentence on an internet forum were just used up. It almost mirrors the chimp’s capacity for critical thought.

Don't flatter yourself. Exposing your insignificance is easier than you may think.

you are totally ignorant person.I think you must be kicked off from armenian forum.

please dont forget armenian genocide.hehehehehe

And who you may be my turkified friend ?