Bush signs bills 'with fingers crossed'

[Sip]

Re: Bush signs bills 'with fingers crossed'

Still, I think I understand that all ‘regular languages’ (like English) are 'context free' languages (these terms seem a bit counter-intuitive, to me, but anyway). Would you post a definition of 'context free' for me?

I think a simple example will go a long way here.

In our daily languages, we say things like "It is cold". "It" can be referring to anything really. But depending on the context, we are usually able to figure out if "it" is referring to the weather, the water temperature in the shower, or the beer out of the fridge. The context of what is being discussed makes an impact on the meaning of a statement. As far as computers go, they suck at understanding those kinds of vague statements.

[Anahita]

Re: Bush signs bills 'with fingers crossed'

Science is no more trying to be more clear than religion.

(I'll need to get to the rest later on.)

I disagree. However, since I have an idea (internal definitions) of science and religion (that are for somewhat practical, not exactly grand philosophical purposes), I like to distinguish the two, yet find some 'common ground.' Like I said, otherwise you might only exist in my mind. Who would I talk with, then?

As far as computers go, they suck at understanding those kinds of vague statements.

Great example. I think I understand that. I love the artistic use of language, in addition to clarity. Computers don't 'get' metaphor, poetry, etc.... I think computers NEVER will. That, actually, makes me happy...

Science SHOULD try to be as clear as possible. But, artistic language... that's art.

[Anonymouse]

Re: Bush signs bills 'with fingers crossed'

I disagree. However, since I have an idea (internal definitions) of science and religion (that are for somewhat practical, not exactly grand philosophical purposes), I like to distinguish the two, yet find some 'common ground.' Like I said, otherwise you might only exist in my mind. Who would I talk with, then?

Your definitions of religion and science, are exactly that ("internal definitions"), yours. As Humpty Dumpty stated in Alice in Wonderland, "Words mean what I say they mean."

But as Alfred Korzybski stated, "the map is not the territory" and words are nothing more than abstractions at worst, and approximations at best, but never clearly defined.

When governments convince people that "war" is "peace" and "occupational forces" are "coalition forces" or that "soldiers" are "peacekeepers" any sort of absurdity and inanity can be believed.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Bush signs bills 'with fingers crossed'

Your definitions of religion and science, are exactly that ("internal definitions"), yours. As Humpty Dumpty stated in Alice in Wonderland, "Words mean what I say they mean."

But as Alfred Korzybski stated, "the map is not the territory" and words are nothing more than abstractions at worst, and approximations at best, but never clearly defined.

When governments convince people that "war" is "peace" and "occupational forces" are "coalition forces" or that "soldiers" are "peacekeepers" any sort of absurdity and inanity can be believed.

And all words uttered by politicians, whether written down and signed or spoken with an oath, become valueless.

"Words mean what I say they mean." - that reminds me of something that one of the wartime leaders of Turkey is supposed to have said. Might have been Taalat. After an official complains that he couldn't make a particularly oppressive action because no law existed that would allow him to do it, Taalat takes out a sheet of paper, writes something on it, and signs it, saying "There was no law, so I make a law, now there is a law"! (It sounds snappier in Turkish, but I can't remember the words.)

[Anonymouse]

Re: Bush signs bills 'with fingers crossed'

And all words uttered by politicians, whether written down and signed or spoken with an oath, become valueless.

"Words mean what I say they mean." - that reminds me of something that one of the wartime leaders of Turkey is supposed to have said. Might have been Taalat. After an official complains that he couldn't make a particularly oppressive action because no law existed that would allow him to do it, Taalat takes out a sheet of paper, writes something on it, and signs it, saying "There was no law, so I make a law, now there is a law"! (It sounds snappier in Turkish, but I can't remember the words.)

Yes, I'm sure it sounded snappier in Turkish, as anything else would as well.

However, the fact that you and I recognize this little tidbit of knowledge that I am almost hesitant to call esoteric, means that the herds of millions who go out to vote and believe themselves to be "progressives" whether in Europe, Canada, America, or Australia and take the words of politicians, as well as the laws enacted, at face value are simply duping themselves!

I knew there was a reason I don't vote and damn proud! Did you know in Thailand the law states that voting is compulsory? How beautiful! But at least they give the option to vote "No one". Imagine if the majority voted for no one, then no government can form! Again, how beautiful!

[Anahita]

Re: Bush signs bills 'with fingers crossed'

Yes, I'm sure it sounded snappier in Turkish, as anything else would as well.

However, the fact that you and I recognize this little tidbit of knowledge that I am almost hesitant to call esoteric, means that the herds of millions who go out to vote and believe themselves to be "progressives" whether in Europe, Canada, America, or Australia and take the words of politicians, as well as the laws enacted, at face value are simply duping themselves!

Imagine if the majority voted for no one, then no government can form! Again, how beautiful!

Oh, SO... Not. I see your point, but, I strongly think that's not the way. The US voting record is very sad. Compare the US voting record with democracies. In some countries, people wait in line for days to vote (like people do in US for concert tickets...) This, to me, demonstrates the gap in understanding, and wealth, and life, and...

TODAY, I voted for school board members and on a referendum about Iraq. I am blessed to live in a city where my views aren't 'odd.'

[Anonymouse]

Re: Bush signs bills 'with fingers crossed'

Oh, SO... Not. I see your point, but, I strongly think that's not the way. The US voting record is very sad. Compare the US voting record with democracys. In some countries, people wait in line for days to vote (like people do in US for concert tickets...) This, to me, demonstrates the gap in understanding, and wealth, and life, and...

Oh you good little lemming believing that only through voting can you get the parcels that the divisive democracies hand out.

By the way, democracy is vastly overrated, and no more and no less immoral than fascism, and often it is at the endpoint or the declining periods of civilizations that democracy takes hold.

Just because people wait in line to vote doesn't make it any more noble or worthy or right, and certainly doesn't make those people seem any brighter. In fact, I'd call them stupider for having done so.

[Anahita]

Re: Bush signs bills 'with fingers crossed'

Papers: Cheney Aide Says Bush OK'd Leak(AP, 20 Minutes Ago)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060407/ap_on_go_pr_wh/cia_leak

“WASHINGTON - President Bush and Vice President xxxx Cheney authorized Cheney's top aide to launch a counterattack of leaks against administration critics on Iraq by feeding intelligence information to reporters, according to court papers citing the aide's testimony in the CIA leak case…

"The president and the vice president must be held accountable," xxxx Durbin, D-Ill., said from the Senate floor. "Accountable for misleading the American people, accountable for the disclosure of classified material for political purposes. It is as serious as it gets in this democracy."

Presidential spokesman Scott McClellan said the White House would have no comment on the investigation. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said the president has the "inherent authority to decide who should have classified information."

(CNN Story)

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/04/06/cia.leak/index.html

[Anahita]

Re: Bush signs bills 'with fingers crossed'

Oh you good little lemming believing that only through voting can you get the parcels that the divisive democracies hand out.

By the way, democracy is vastly overrated...

First, I certainly never said 'only' by voting...

Our ‘lemming’ voting actions (as you call voting) of grassroots democracy made world news, Anonymouse. Twenty-four of 32 communities with the referendum, including the two largest cities in Wisconsin, voted to stop the war. Two states in the US have done this now (Wisconsin and Vermont). That’s only the start! The White House is nervous about this.


White House Troubled By Democracy in U.S.
Editorial; The Nation


"Blind defenders of the war, who claim to be committed to spreading democracy in Iraq, continue to argue that democracy in America does not matter. For all their enthusiasm about elections abroad, they dismiss the will of the American people as expressed through ballot boxes here in the United States.

But how will they explain away the fact that the White House wordsmith was so obviously shaken by a few dozen elections in small towns in the middle of the country?"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20060406/cm_thenation/1574935

Wisconsin Shouts It Out
Doves Celebrate Victory At Hawk's
The Capital Times
Wednesday, April 5, 2006

By Samara Kalk Derby The Capital Times

Wisconsin voters sent a shout-out to the political establishment Tuesday that they are ready for an end to the war in Iraq.

And, as expected, Madison's voice was among the loudest.

"This was not a campaign that was backed by big money, it was not backed by people in power. It was backed by people power!" state Rep. Spencer Black, D-Madison, yelled to about 200 supporters of the anti-war referendum who gathered to celebrate at Hawk's Bar and Grill on State Street.

Twenty-four of 32 Wisconsin communities approved nonbinding referendums calling for the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq."
-----------

This all gets back to this issue of language...

DEMOCRACY?

I can’t find the quote right now, but linguist Noam Chomsky (incidentally he classified spoken languages into categories, including “context-free”--part of where I was confused by what Sip was talking about), said something about democracy (and other words.) Governments do not want to define ‘democracy’ because, in doing so, that would mean that some are, and some aren’t. My idea of democracy (grassroots) is VERY different than the rhetoric of ‘democracy’ that Bush Admin talks about (same with ‘clear skies,’ ‘healthy forests,’ and much more.)

[Anahita]

Re: Bush signs bills 'with fingers crossed'

By the way, democracy is vastly overrated, and no more and no less immoral than fascism, and often it is at the endpoint or the declining periods of civilizations that democracy takes hold.

I really would like you to explain what the ? you mean... ?