Hello from Italy...

[retro]

Re: Hello from Italy...

Wrong, they were defending the legitimate republican government (that had restored, or promised to, the minority groups' autonomies and promoted the separation between church and state) against Franchist insurrection. The Communists "backed" the Republic until Stalin - who wanted to destroy any leftist non-Communist political opposition - first gave order to assassinate some of the rival Republican commanders, then withdrew any kind of support. If anything, it's the Communists' credentials that are dubious :P

The Basques' luck was that they lived in a largely mountainous territory, who enabled them to preserve their linguistic and cultural peculiarities. The French ones seem to be more assimilated than the Spanish ones though. Or at least, they don't make it to the news.

The Basques and Galicians have always been very Nationalistic people. The main reason why the Basques have greater autonomy than other region of Spain is that Franco favoured the more industrial regions in the north. The French on the whole are far more egalitarian than the Spaniards and possible on better terms with the Basques.

Catalonia whilst more prosperous than the South is not without it's faults. Catalans can be very emotional immature and the Spanish in the south are completely crazy.

However it's worth keeping in mind that twenty years ago Spain was basically a third world country and that it has come along way since then. Both economically and socially, I'd be more far worried about Portugal than Spain.

[Odar]

Re: Hello from Italy...

Wrong, they were defending the legitimate republican government (that had restored, or promised to, the minority groups' autonomies and promoted the separation between church and state) against Franchist insurrection. The Communists "backed" the Republic until Stalin - who wanted to destroy any leftist non-Communist political opposition - first gave order to assassinate some of the rival Republican commanders, then withdrew any kind of support. If anything, it's the Communists' credentials that are dubious :P

The Basques' luck was that they lived in a largely mountainous territory, who enabled them to preserve their linguistic and cultural peculiarities. The French ones seem to be more assimilated than the Spanish ones though. Or at least, they don't make it to the news.

[retro]

Re: Hello from Italy...

Do not forget Catalans, Albanians and Greeks

I'm from near Asti (land of many great wines), though I was born in Naples. Where have you been?

Southern Italy was undermined first of all by the brutal annexation and civil war (1861-1865), then by 150 of state and mafia plunder. Now the mafias are taking over the north and exporting themselves all around the world.
Oh, well... I admit I don't know whether, say, the Catalan separatists are as clownish as "our" (not mine) Umberto xxxo. But at least Catalans, or Basques, share a history, a culture, a language - the so-called "Padania" is as artificial as could be. The only thing that counts is "less taxes" (for those who don't have a fixed income) and "immigrants out". They mistake culture for cultivation.

There seems to be a link between Iberians and Ligures - or at least that's one of the hypotheses. Did they also have any affinity with the Basques?

During the Spanish Civil War the Catalans backed the Communists and their credentials are a bit dubious.

The Alantic cutures all have obscure cultural links to each other and the Spanish guitar for example is originally from North Africa.

The Basques where at least 'ethnically' Indo-Europeanised by the Celts, who had fairly large settlements in Galicia. However they have kept their isolate language and culture. Most Europeans are like that and are a mixture of indigenous European and Indo-European ancestry anyway.

Ligurian prior to Rome, really linked Italy to Gaulish France and the Ligurian language had both Italic and Celtic affinities.

Under Rome the Celtiberians and Iberians where Romanised and the Western empire became very powerful and independent. However they nevertheless remained loyal to Rome.

The Celts where a very large confederation of peoples and far harder to absorb than the Iberians. The Iberians are a quite strange group of people. Since they where amongst the first people to colonize the Mediterranean and seemingly had links to a lot of ancient cultures. However not a great deal is really known about them.


Lady of Elche - Iberian sculpture from the 4th century B.C., though the artisanship suggests strong Hellenistic influences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_of_Elche

[Odar]

Re: Hello from Italy...

Do not forget Catalans, Albanians and Greeks

I'm from near Asti (land of many great wines), though I was born in Naples. Where have you been?

Southern Italy was undermined first of all by the brutal annexation and civil war (1861-1865), then by 150 of state and mafia plunder. Now the mafias are taking over the north and exporting themselves all around the world.
Oh, well... I admit I don't know whether, say, the Catalan separatists are as clownish as "our" (not mine) Umberto xxxo. But at least Catalans, or Basques, share a history, a culture, a language - the so-called "Padania" is as artificial as could be. The only thing that counts is "less taxes" (for those who don't have a fixed income) and "immigrants out". They mistake culture for cultivation.

There seems to be a link between Iberians and Ligures - or at least that's one of the hypotheses. Did they also have any affinity with the Basques?

[retro]

Re: Hello from Italy...

We call ourselves a nation of grouches indeed

That's why all immigrants want to go to Sicily

With 3 indigenous mafias plus some immigrant criminal organizations, an inept political class, and industrialists who seem to be more interested in cutting wages and welfare contribution than in long-run plans, it's gonna be pretty hard...

Yup. Ancient Sardinians are believed to have the same origin, too. Actually, my family on my paternal grandfather's side comes from northern Lazio, ie southern Etruria, so I might as well have some Etruscan blood

Phoenicians, Arabs, Normans and god knows who else made such a mess of the Sardinians, Sicilians and Maltese. That it's hard to know quite what they are.

I have been though the north of Italy by car and it's really nice there early in the summer. The landscape in the north of Italy is like something out of a fairy tale, with market gardens and castles on top of mountains.

The mafia and corruption have long undermined the south of Italy and as is the case else where wealthy Italians do far to little to help their own people. What is more as is the case in Spain their are a few clowns, who seemingly think that it's a good idea to Balkanise Italy.

The Etruscans where very different from the Romans culturally. Anatolian like the Balkans and Iberia in the west is a important cultural bridge and the Minoans where also from Anatolian. The ancient Iberians, Egyptians and Phoenicians where amongst the first people to colonize the Mediterranean. All of these ancient seafaring peoples played a important role in the transmission of culture, ideas and people.

I am intrested in learning more about the Iberians, as they are quite a obscure seemingly indigenous European peoples and they have unknown origins. The Iberians formed close ties with the Celts, who established ancient settlements in Iberia. However they traded extensively throughout the Mediterranean and exhibited a fusion of influences.

[Odar]

Re: Hello from Italy...

We call ourselves a nation of grouches indeed

That's why all immigrants want to go to Sicily

With 3 indigenous mafias plus some immigrant criminal organizations, an inept political class, and industrialists who seem to be more interested in cutting wages and welfare contribution than in long-run plans, it's gonna be pretty hard...

Yup. Ancient Sardinians are believed to have the same origin, too. Actually, my family on my paternal grandfather's side comes from northern Lazio, ie southern Etruria, so I might as well have some Etruscan blood

[retro]

Re: Hello from Italy...

Hi retro

"We" take ourselves too seriously because no one else does... especially nowadays j/k

Have you ever been in Noto? If you're interested in architecture and stuff, I'd suggest you to visit it before negligence and time bring it down...

Italians are on the whole very civilised people. However they tend to be moody and always have such grumpy little faces?

Sadly I haven't been to the south of Sicily before, just the north. I like Sicily though and think that it's a ideal place to go on a charted yacht cruise, or sea fishing type hoilday.

Italy really needs to do far more to tackle corruption, improve accountability and attract investment. It's a pity that Sicily is falling apart, as it's such a intresting place and it has loads of lovely Cathedrals.



Cathedral of Monreale in Sicily


Are you aware of the Etruscan's Anatolian origins?

The study has also shown that there is a link between Etruscans and certain populations of Anatolia. In particular, the areas of historical Etruscan occupation have a relatively high concentration of y-haplogroup G.

According to the research conducted by genetic scientists in Italy's Pavia University, the roots of Etruscans were in the ancient Lydian region in Anatolia. The scientists have reached the conclusion by examining 322 Mitochondrial DNA Variations derived from the three districts in Italy's Toscana region where the Etruscans once lived as well as comparing their sequence variation with that of 55 western Eurasian populations.

The results also support the information about Etruscans given by famed Greek historian Herodotus, known as the father of history. According to Herodotus the Etruscans immigrated to Italy from the Lydian region, Turkey's modern provinces of İzmir and Manisa.

The origin of the Etruscan people has been a focus of major controversy for the past 2,500 years and several hypotheses have been proposed to explain their language and sophisticated culture as well as their origin. The research is thus considered to be an important development supporting the Etruscan people's Aegean/Anatolian origin or the direct genetic input from the Near East, a scenario in agreement with the Lydian origin of Etruscans.

The results were published in the “American Journal of Human Genetics."

http://ancient-anatolia.blogspot.com...-italians.html

[Odar]

Re: Hello from Italy...

Hi retro

"We" take ourselves too seriously because no one else does... especially nowadays j/k

Have you ever been in Noto? If you're interested in architecture and stuff, I'd suggest you to visit it before negligence and time bring it down...

[retro]

Re: Hello from Italy...

Hey Odar

I am Ducth-Irish and live in London. I was in Palermo Sicily back in December for two weeks on holiday. I very much like Italy and Italian culture and history. Even if Italians are sulky and take themselves too seriously.

Phoenician Sarcophagi - Sarcóxxxo fenicio de Palermo

[Odar]

Re: Hello from Italy...

Some translations are really hilarious indeed, but if I have to seriously read a page they don't help much. I guess I'll have to buy a dictionary someday...

Thanx