Hello and Parev (getting in touch with my roots, and not with hair dye)

[Mos]

Re: Hello and Parev (getting in touch with my roots, and not with hair dye)

Hyegirl is obviously referring to the post-9/11 histeria where the US State Department classed Armenians as middle-eastern, potentual terrorists, included Armenia in their "axis of evil" garbage, and made all Armenian imigrants living in America report to immigration officials for interrogation. It's mentioned in posts in this very forum if you want to check back. I remember it, you seemingly don't.

Armenia was never listed in "axis of evil" check your facts and the mistake that the US State Department made is classify Armenian citizens as requiring "extra screening" upon coming to the US, however it was quickly removed after uproar from Armenian community.

U.S. Drops Armenian Men from List of Visitors Who Must Register
By JOHN M. BRODER
Published: December 19, 2002

LOS ANGELES, Dec. 18 — Reversing course, the Department of Justice has dropped Armenia from the list of countries whose adult male citizens living temporarily in the United States must register with immigration authorities.

The turnabout, on Tuesday, followed loud complaints from the government of Armenia and Armenian groups in the United States over a notice, published by the department in the Federal Register last Friday, that added Armenia, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia to 18 countries already listed in the so-called special registration program.

"I don't know why Armenia appeared on the list in the first place," said Arman Kirakossian, the Armenian ambassador to the United States. "We have no terrorist groups in Armenia. We are part of the campaign against terrorism."

Armenia is a predominantly Christian country, the ambassador noted. With the exception of North Korea, the 20 countries that remain on the list are Arab or predominantly Muslim.

Mr. Kirakossian said that roughly 1.5 million people of Armenian descent were living in the United States, at least a third of them here in the Los Angeles area. He said he had no estimate of the number of Armenians in the country on temporary visas who would have been forced to register with the immigration service.

The ambassador said that as soon as the notice appeared last Friday, he and other Armenian officials contacted the White House, Congress and the Justice Department to try to have the decision overturned. Armenian-American groups joined in the intensive lobbying effort, which continued through the weekend.

"What we were told was it was a misunderstanding, a mistake," Mr. Kirakossian said.

Jorge Martinez, a Justice Department spokesman, offered no explanation for the original decision or the change.

"I am not responsible for what is published in the Federal Register," Mr. Martinez said. "All I can say is that two new countries were added this week: Pakistan and Saudi Arabia."

The program requires men over the age of 16 from countries considered sources of potential terrorists to appear before officers of the Immigration and Naturalization Service to be interviewed, fingerprinted and photographed. Failure to register can result in criminal charges and immediate expulsion

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/19/national/19VISA.html

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Hello and Parev (getting in touch with my roots, and not with hair dye)

So Armenian names are all of sudden "middle eastern" I suggest you do some research.

Hyegirl is obviously referring to the post-9/11 histeria where the US State Department classed Armenians as middle-eastern, potentual terrorists, included Armenia in their "axis of evil" garbage, and made all Armenian imigrants living in America report to immigration officials for interrogation. It's mentioned in posts in this very forum if you want to check back. I remember it, you seemingly don't.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Hello and Parev (getting in touch with my roots, and not with hair dye)

You can’t even answer what it means to be raised as an Armenian.

It means "you think exactly like me, and you agree with everthing I say". That's his definition of being an Armenian.

[Mos]

Re: Hello and Parev (getting in touch with my roots, and not with hair dye)

I know a person only has so much time in their life and childhood is usually where most identity is formed but I don't see why a person can't reconnect with their culture at any point in time.

They can "reconnect" and to a point bring on back some of the identity, but it will be mostly from the surface. They won't be able to change the core which is formed throughout childhood and adolescence.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Hello and Parev (getting in touch with my roots, and not with hair dye)

You can’t even answer what it means to be raised as an Armenian.

Well, you can only be J3wish if you were given birth by a J3wish mother. Now, one can also convert to Judaism. This is the confusing part... since one is attained through heritage while the other simply by association. One is genetic and the other is merely like joining a club.

We can all agree that having Armenian parents and being raised in an Armenian household and/or community would surely mean one was raised as an Armenian.

However, let's consider someone who was born to Armenians then adopted and taken away from their culture. Does that person not have a right to return to their culture since they didn't voluntarily leave? I know a person only has so much time in their life and childhood is usually where most identity is formed but I don't see why a person can't reconnect with their culture at any point in time.

[Mos]

Re: Hello and Parev (getting in touch with my roots, and not with hair dye)

You can’t even answer what it means to be raised as an Armenian.

I've answered it many times and the answer is simple. Being raised Armenian is being raised in an Armenian household where the primary values and culture taught are Armenian, where the children grow up with Armenian values and being able to connect firstly to other Armenians alike. Where their primary allegiance is to the Armenian nation and it is the most familiar culture and values to them. Of course there's much more to this, but that is in a nutshell.

The reason I joined this forum was to connect with people, not just knowledge. It’s the people connect that I wanted. Anyways, whatev. I’m done with this thread. Have a nice time telling me I am wrong, dear Mos.

(BTW, did you read my earlier post? "Not discourage me from learning about Armenia, sure. Not discourage me from thinking that I am in any way other than genetics Armenian... I think he has made his view clear."

What have I been telling you that you are wrong? Genetics mean nothing, if you have studied genetics you will know that the genetic difference between ethnic groups especially close ones is so minuscule that it is ridiculous and laughable that people differentiate themselves on the basis of a few genes. Again, you can have 100% Chinese blood but be raised as only Russian and thus have no connection whatsoever to China and Chinese people. What does matter is one's mindset, values, and culture. Even genetic difference between man and monkeys is so tiny. Humans in general are very close to each other genetically than other species.

If you actually knew me, you would know the inaccuracy of this statement. But then you know everything you need to know about me based on a couple of posts.

All I'm saying is that Armenian names are not middle eastern nor is Armenia.

Not every single thing is so contrary between then that you cannot be influenced by one and influenced by the other. If you understood my world, a more mixed world than yours, then you would understand this better, but you do not know my world. And you still judge me for what is also YOUR ignorance. Like I said, you don't live in a world where crossing culture has to be a way of life. You may never understand growing up in such a place or navigating multiple cultures like that, but that doesn't mean it can never be just because YOU don't get it.

I know "your world" I spend time between Armenia and US, I have interacting with many different cultures and people. I've seen it with my own eyes. I see what the American culture does to some Armenian families that could have been an asset to the Armenian nation. I see the monochrome, disgusting hollywood values that decay family values and my culture. I see America as a rise of a uncultured people, rid of past historic culture, in favour of a corporate, hollywood one. I do not want Armenian culture to be mixed with that garbage. What I want to see is Armenians growing up in US with their primary allegiance to Armenia, with their most familiar culture be Armenian, and for them to hold Armenian values not some mixed garbage. For them to make Armenia strong not zionist support US. For them to contribute to Armenian nation, make it stronger, and keep the Armenian name high. Anything less, diasporans will slowly face degradation and assimilation genocide.

[Hyegirl]

Re: Hello and Parev (getting in touch with my roots, and not with hair dye)

If your family hasn't raised you as an Armenian, you cannot say that just because there were Armenians in your life, all of a sudden some of that Armenian identity rubbed off on you. Sorry but when it comes to the reality of hyphenated names you are full American - I mean you even said it yourself that you would die by heart an American. "Mixing Armenian"culture with other cultures is purely wrong. Armenian culture is armenian culture, you can't change it and mix it and still call it Armenian culture.

You can’t even answer what it means to be raised as an Armenian.

My family could include Chinese people, but if they raised me as American, I would not have not any right to Chinese identity. Just because someone is "Armenian" doesn't mean that their identity automatically rubs off on you. It is obvious from what you have been saying, that the Armenian identity and culture is some sort of exotic thing for you that you want some connection to, to differentiate. In reality, practically speaking it's as much foreign to you as any other foreign culture.

The reason I joined this forum was to connect with people, not just knowledge. It’s the people connect that I wanted. Anyways, whatev. I’m done with this thread. Have a nice time telling me I am wrong, dear Mos.

(BTW, did you read my earlier post? "Not discourage me from learning about Armenia, sure. Not discourage me from thinking that I am in any way other than genetics Armenian... I think he has made his view clear."

So Armenian names are all of sudden "middle eastern" I suggest you do some research.

If you actually knew me, you would know the inaccuracy of this statement. But then you know everything you need to know about me based on a couple of posts.

In the end, I personally don't understand how you can reconcile a mixture of Armenian culture and American. American values and culture are rather distasteful and teach immoral and rebellious values. There is that sense of arrogance and idiotic self-pride that also dominates those values. Not to mention the fact that America remains an anti-Armenian country with a disgusting approach to the world, doing the every wish of Israeli and Turkish interests, and using its disgusting military to oppress weaker people who don't suit their interests. Given all this, I find mixing American with Armenian to be reprehensible and a big wrong.

Not every single thing is so contrary between then that you cannot be influenced by one and influenced by the other. If you understood my world, a more mixed world than yours, then you would understand this better, but you do not know my world. And you still judge me for what is also YOUR ignorance. Like I said, you don't live in a world where crossing culture has to be a way of life. You may never understand growing up in such a place or navigating multiple cultures like that, but that doesn't mean it can never be just because YOU don't get it. (And if you think that just cause I grew up less than all Armenian, that America reflects my approach to foreign policy, you so don't get me at all. Thanks for demonstrating my point. )

[KanadaHye]

Re: Hello and Parev (getting in touch with my roots, and not with hair dye)

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I am not discouraging you from learning about Armenian culture and identity. The more people that know about Armenian subjects is good for the information war. All that I am saying is that you cannot expect that after your studies you will forge an Armenian identity and be Armenian like other Armenians who have grown up in Armenian families with Armenian values as the dominant way of life in their lives. There's a metaphysical core that you will always be missing because of your upbringing, but I think that is pretty obvious and you shouldn't be discouraged because of it. Even within Armenians there are divisions and cultural barriers for example between Hayastancis (armenians who grew up in Soviet Armenia) and Western Armenians whose ancestors fled Genocide.

You know it's funny... there are certain mannerisms and even facial expressions that I can see passed down among Armenians.

[Mos]

Re: Hello and Parev (getting in touch with my roots, and not with hair dye)

This is why you went and "made sure [I went] about all of this with the correct mindset" in the other threads as well? Should I have said my family’s genocide instead?

Mos, I am sure it is easy to put things in black and white when you sit up in a country that is 97.9% the same ethnic group, but when you live in a place where crossing cultures is a way of life and only 60% of the state are your race, cultural divides are no longer as black and white. Both Armenians and Americans have been in my life since birth (well, technically before). I am in some ways the hyphenate reality of many Armenian-Americans, not all Armenian, but also not all American either.

If your family hasn't raised you as an Armenian, you cannot say that just because there were Armenians in your life, all of a sudden some of that Armenian identity rubbed off on you. Sorry but when it comes to the reality of hyphenated names you are full American - I mean you even said it yourself that you would die by heart an American. "Mixing Armenian"culture with other cultures is purely wrong. Armenian culture is armenian culture, you can't change it and mix it and still call it Armenian culture.

No, the real Armenian in me is the reaction to you guys are telling me that my FAMILY doesn't matter. My family is part of who I am. They are a big and important part of my life. And I am being told they don't matter. [retracts claws] My family includes Armenians who have influenced my life growing up. In fact, outside of my immediate family, it is the Armenian side of my family who more than the others in my family that most influenced my life and served in various ways for years as a model of who I want to be. This is reality that you guys cannot deny any more than you can deny that the Americans in my family influenced my life growing up.

My family could include Chinese people, but if they raised me as American, I would not have not any right to Chinese identity. Just because someone is "Armenian" doesn't mean that their identity automatically rubs off on you. It is obvious from what you have been saying, that the Armenian identity and culture is some sort of exotic thing for you that you want some connection to, to differentiate. In reality, practically speaking it's as much foreign to you as any other foreign culture.

Between 9/11 (my mom’s uncle was investigated for having a middle eastern last name and my mom worried about my brother having a beard, plus the Armenian store closed ) and some ignorant comments I got at the community college, I needed to educate myself better to help education others who were so culturally ignorant.

So Armenian names are all of sudden "middle eastern" I suggest you do some research.


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I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I am not discouraging you from learning about Armenian culture and identity. The more people that know about Armenian subjects is good for the information war. All that I am saying is that you cannot expect that after your studies you will forge an Armenian identity and be Armenian like other Armenians who have grown up in Armenian families with Armenian values as the dominant way of life in their lives. There's a metaphysical core that you will always be missing because of your upbringing, but I think that is pretty obvious and you shouldn't be discouraged because of it. Even within Armenians there are divisions and cultural barriers for example between Hayastancis (armenians who grew up in Soviet Armenia) and Western Armenians whose ancestors fled Genocide.

In the end, I personally don't understand how you can reconcile a mixture of Armenian culture and American. American values and culture are rather distasteful and teach immoral and rebellious values. There is that sense of arrogance and idiotic self-pride that also dominates those values. Not to mention the fact that America remains an anti-Armenian country with a disgusting approach to the world, doing the every wish of Israeli and Turkish interests, and using its disgusting military to oppress weaker people who don't suit their interests. Given all this, I find mixing American with Armenian to be reprehensible and a big wrong.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Hello and Parev (getting in touch with my roots, and not with hair dye)

When I was younger and saw more of my family, some of whom are now dead, I was interested in it because I was interested in who they were. Through that, they taught my little girl mind how to see the world is as much as could be shared with a little girl. Some stories, such as the details of the genocide before leaving Armenia were never told or were told only late in life to preserve for the next generation. Some things were just who they were, be those things Armenian or not, but taught me how to see the world with faith, love, passion, etc. It is through their eyes that I learned to see life and people as best as little girls can. Now I am a young woman who makes her own decisions influenced by those people.

I like this part the best