hey every1..

[gizem]

this is gizem frm TURKEY..i am not ashamed or i am not so proud of what ottoman empire has done for hundereds of years- dont mean ''genocide'' ..but now the counry n state ve changed, there s no sultan anymore, n we ve democracy n our motto has been peace in the land. peace on earth for over 85 years -which was motto of Ataturk..I do not care what you say about my country, but i do care about the world where we dont live in peace or where our children wont be able to live in peace..even though all stuff u ve been talkin and hatin my country for has already changed..

I just wanted to come here to learn about ''genocide'' from the other view..i wonder if you have proofs to show me on the net..or books to read that are not written by Armenians..

So dont get me wrong..its not like i came here to swear and i hope i wont hear such things from u guys as well..i only wanna hear ur point of view that i ll respect as long as it doesnt offend me some how..

thanks..

[Sip]

Re: hey every1..

You should definitely read 40 days at Musa Dagh which was written by an Austrian writer.

You can also read Orhan Pamuk's book. He recently won the nobel prize in literature and he is not Armenian (he's Turkish).

There are many others but these are the two that come to my mind right away.

[gizem]

Re: hey every1..

I do know Orhan Pamuk..but is that the best u can come up with??

[Bitterballen]

Re: hey every1..

You can also read Orhan Pamuk's book. He recently won the nobel prize in literature and he is not Armenian (he's Turkish).

No offense, but I think (actually I'm pretty sure) that she knows who Orhan Pamuk is. Have you met a Turk lately who doesn't. Even I know him and I'm from Amsterdam for crying out loud.

Anyway, back to your question. There's lots of information on the internet(duh!) but only a few sources are written by 'impartial', objective authors.

As always you can begin by reading wikipedia to get a general picture of the 'genocide'.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia...de#Orhan_Pamuk) From there you can just google your way to wisdom. Google is your best friend! (after real people and vodka).

Hmm, I just read what I wrote and I have to admit: that's some pretty lousy advice. Anyway, good luck with your search for the truth.

Vamos

[ARK]

Re: hey every1..

Sip did not say read Orhan Pamuk but his books...

Btw, the one who has doubts need to search for the truth.

[Sip]

Re: hey every1..

No offense, but I think (actually I'm pretty sure) that she knows who Orhan Pamuk is. Have you met a Turk lately who doesn't. Even I know him and I'm from Amsterdam for crying out loud.

No offense taken. But it's a lot like someone coming here and asking for proof that the Earth revolves around the sun, written by a non-Armenian author. Even though to you and me the name Copernicus might be very very obvious, we still have to refer that person to maybe read about Copernicus since the question itself hints at the level of "sophistication" of the person we are dealing with

[Bitterballen]

Re: hey every1..

Btw, the one who has doubts need to search for the truth.

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.

Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)

No offense taken. But it's a lot like someone coming here and asking for proof that the Earth revolves around the sun, written by a non-Armenian author. Even though to you and me the name Copernicus might be very very obvious, we still have to refer that person to maybe read about Copernicus since the question itself hints at the level of "sophistication" of the person we are dealing with.

I don't agree. It's all just a matter of perspective. While for you the Armenian genocide may be as obvious as the Earth revolving around the sun, for Gizem exactly the opposite may be the case.

It doesn't take a genius to realize that this 'difference of opinion' is a problem rooted deep in the social foundations of both countries. The main problem, as well as the solution, is education. "Education is a method whereby one acquires a higher grade of prejudices." That is certainly the case here. In Turkey kids don't learn squad about the genocide and in Armenia kids are taught to see Turks as the evildoers. Education's real purpose is to replace an empty mind with an open one. Gizem just came here asking you and the other members to shed some light on this issue from an Armenian perspective (which is pretty open-minded if you ask me, good job gizem) and you just dismissed her question as stupid, basically. You questioned her level of sophistication? Maybe it's time to open your mind and look into a mirror, mister.

What I, as an impartial third party, don't understand is what the fuzz is all about (to put it in simple words). The relocation of people (as the Turks call it), or genocide (the Armenian interpretation), occured between 1915 and 1917. This means that the people who supposedly committed these crimes, assuming they were 18 years or older, are now at least 109 years old. So it is save to say that none of the perpetrators are alive anymore. Therefore it would be foolish to blame the Turkey of nowadays for the act itself, whatever that may be. Even more so since, as Gizem pointed out, Turkey has undergone radical changes.

Having said that, the only possible reason for the Armenians to be upset with Turkey is their refusal to recognize their role in the massacre. Right? And the way I see it, with either Turkish answer Armenia comes out as the 'winner'. Think about it! If Turkey refuses to recognize the genocide they won't be allowed to join the European Union which in this day and age means exclusion from economic activity. And if they do accept the genocide theory, well, then Armenia finally has what it wanted for so long. So basically Turkey has to face a punishment regardless of their future response; they either lose face and are humiliated or they face exclusion of the EU thus hindering their economic growth. Isn't that a win-win situation?

In Holland we have had our fair share of problems with this issue. Two members of parliament were almost suspended because they denied the existence of the genocide. Plans are now underway to follow France's example and make it punishable by law to deny the genocide(which, to me, is unbelievable...what happened to freedom of speech?).

I'm not taking any sides in this issue (yet) since I simply don't know enough about the technical details. But that did help me to form an unbiased opinion based solely on the responses I've heard and read. The craziest thing is that both parties are unwilling to compromise and just keep badmouthing the other side. And when FINALLY someone (Gizem in this case) asks someone else a very, very simple question the response is still hostile. If that continues then you might as well forget about it and close down this section of the forum.

Anyway, I've just wasted another 10 minutes that I should've spend on studying for my math exam. Gizem, good luck! You'll need it here.

To all Armenians: thank you so much for Manucharyan. He's a great player at Ajax and we love him. Keep 'em coming.

Bye, and remember: "To repeat what others have said, requires education; to challenge it, requires brains."

[skhara]

Re: hey every1..

Having said that, the only possible reason for the Armenians to be upset with Turkey is their refusal to recognize their role in the massacre. Right?

Well as a matter of fact, Armenians, well before the genocide, considered the turks as backward, stupid, reactionary, bloodthirsty, and barbaric -- and it was the same from generation to generation.

And the hell do I care about word-games? The vengeance extracted on the turk has so far been limited.

Also, as far as our responses to turks -- few of us actually entertain these people. A lot of us just ignore or mock them. But the fact of the matter is we really have nothing to talk about. They come from the enemy camp and we are at war with their camp on more fronts than one. And the Genocide is only one battle.

Read the first three posts within the following thread:

http://forum.armenianclub.com/showthread.php?t=6931

[Bitterballen]

Re: hey every1..

Well as a matter of fact, Armenians, well before the genocide, considered the turks as backward, stupid, reactionary, bloodthirsty, and barbaric -- and it was the same from generation to generation.

What does that have to do with the Turks who are alive now. You can say a lot about them (i.e can't play football) but they are definitely not bloodthirsty and barbaric. Not more than the country you live in anyway.

Let me just quote one sentence from the topic you referred me to:

"Based upon my experiences, there are essentially three kinds of Turks:
The good: This kind wants to whitewash their role within the Armenian Genocide. This kind does apologize, but say we need to simply move on."

Personally I couldn't agree more. Instead of highlighting the dark years of your history you can better concentrate on how to build a prosperous nation with a good future. Surely that's more important than what's already behind you. So instead of fighting with Turks why don't you discuss how you can improve this: http://www.euro.who.int/eprise/main/...hic/20050623_1

Armenia should choose to let go of a past wrong and no longer be hurt by it. It really doesn't matter if the person, or country, who hurt you deserves to be forgiven. Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself. Armenia has things to do and it should want to move on.

But if Armenians really think all Turks (thus including the topic starter who is just asking for some information) are stupid, backward and bloodthirsty then it doesn't really make them look any better, now does it?

[Osttruppen]

Re: hey every1..

this is gizem frm TURKEY..i am not ashamed or i am not so proud of what ottoman empire has done for hundereds of years- dont mean ''genocide'' ..but now the counry n state ve changed, there s no sultan anymore, n we ve democracy n our motto has been peace in the land. peace on earth for over 85 years -which was motto of Ataturk..I do not care what you say about my country, but i do care about the world where we dont live in peace or where our children wont be able to live in peace..even though all stuff u ve been talkin and hatin my country for has already changed..

I just wanted to come here to learn about ''genocide'' from the other view..i wonder if you have proofs to show me on the net..or books to read that are not written by Armenians..

So dont get me wrong..its not like i came here to swear and i hope i wont hear such things from u guys as well..i only wanna hear ur point of view that i ll respect as long as it doesnt offend me some how..

thanks..

Go ride your donkey somewhere else! we dont give a s.h.i.t. about your "democratic donkeyland", there are 90 million turks and only 20 million Armenians on this planet, and we're not gonna waste our time trying to prove every stupid monkey! WE WILL TAKE WHAT IS OURS SOONER OR LATER...