Feminism

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by Shahumyan here are a few links for clarification:

http://www.marxist.com/Theory/marx_vs_fem1.html

marxism vs feminism

http://www.marxist.com/Theory/marx_vs_fem2.html

marxism vs feminism (part 2)

http://www.marxist.com/Theory/marxism_and_women.html

Marxism and the emancipation of women

id like to hear your comments

I can see how Feminists can be identified with Marxists in the 'equality' chant, however for Marx and Marxists to assert that it was capitalism that oppressed women is erroneous. It was precisely capitalism that freed women from "male oppression", and set them to find her way. It was the feudal and pre capitalist, pre market society that was marked by male oppression since women were chattels of their fathers and husbands, where they could own no property of their own. Capitalism is the reason why women have what we have today, not some horsepucky creed. With the advent of new technology it was capitalism that immensely lightened the burden of housework.

I simply cannot find logic on the part of feminists. A certain feminists quoted as feminism being a champion of individualism, yet fails to see how this is a contradiction. Of course I don't expect anyone with preconceived notions and blind allegiance to a creed to understand this, which is your typical feminist. The basis of feminism is the tireless rant of 'equality'. Show me how one thing in nature is equal, maybe then I'll consider feminism as something valid.

Marx' creed attempts to bring about 'equality' as well yet historically this is a failure for equality is not consonant with nature. Therefore feminism, like marxism, are built on false premises and promises.

[Shahumyan]

capitalism did not give equality to women, it was the united stance of the workers which did this. See: giving vote to women, who gave the vote to women? capitalism, or the pressure from below?

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by Shahumyan capitalism did not give equality to women, it was the united stance of the workers which did this. See: giving vote to women, who gave the vote to women? capitalism, or the pressure from below?

Capitalism never gave women 'equality'. Nothing has and nothing can. 'Equality' is alien to nature such a concept does not exist beyond an idea. Capitalism did uplift women from the pre market era where they were nothing more than chattels and eventually they were able to own property, and where we end up today.

[Shahumyan]

i just explaineed to you, capitalism DID NOT give women ANY equality, if it wasnt for the advanced workers then women would still be where they were at the end of the feudal ages. Capitalism gave rise to advanced proleteriat, who became more class consious, and fought for womens rights.

its funny how when you cant continue an argument you go to the old "natural order" argument. Yes, it is natural for women to work only at home is it mouse?

[Anonymouse]

Originally posted by Shahumyan i just explaineed to you, capitalism DID NOT give women ANY equality, if it wasnt for the advanced workers then women would still be where they were at the end of the feudal ages. Capitalism gave rise to advanced proleteriat, who became more class consious, and fought for womens rights.

Any other rational mind would have understood by now that I never said capitalism gave women EQUALITY. Stop misconstruing what I say to fit in with your Marxist version of events. Nothing in nature is equal and nothing 'gives' or 'makes equality'. Such a concept is alien. I did say that it was the capitalist revolution that gave women the change to own property and took them out of the pre market society of chattels and such and how we end up today. "Equality" has nothing to do with this. Stop viewing this in Marxist terms.

I find a common pattern between Marxists and feminists, and that is 'equality'. Both groups cling to their discredited theories that are not a result of deductive reasoning, but contrary to it, and both preach 'equality' yet how they are going to prove and define 'equality' is something that they all fail to do. Of course, all we must do is observe nature to see that it is precisely built on inequalities.

its funny how when you cant continue an argument you go to the old "natural order" argument. Yes, it is natural for women to work only at home is it mouse?

Can't continue an argument? It is you who misconstrued what I have said all along, quoting me as saying "capitalism gave women equality" when I never said such a thing. Capitalism is not about wealth distribution or forcing unnatural changes to natural inequalities that exist within society. Stating that capitalism gave women a chance to be where they are in the present, is far more different than stating it gave them "equality".

I am sick and tired of feminists, Marxists and other socialistic entities constantly going around in circular logic, not understanding that both their ideologies rest on 'equality' and that in itself is non existent. Why no one from the Marxists or the feminists have addressed this issue indeed speaks volumes.

[violette829]

Originally posted by Shahumyan some rather uninformed people say "women and men are equal" therefore no need for feminism. Feminism is a reaction against the blatant inequalities

Look at wages and contrast.

Look at role of religion

also look how poor child benefits are so women are forced to stay at home rather than go to work.

There are no "men studies" because men are not an oppressed gender! therefore less interest

I am so in love with u..it's not even funny.. Just for that statement to the lame asses who don't think that feminism must exist...The only thought that pops in ur head when u think "feminist" is a fat, manly, tall lesbian who wants to take control over everything....If u 2 men, who are discussing this, were women, U WOULD NOT HAVE THIS OPINION! What the xxxx is so fair about a woman who has to give birth, AND devote her entire life to that thing coming out of her JUST BECAUSE she is the woman, she gave birth to it? Didn't the SPERM swim its way into the egg? Didn't the man contribute to it just as much? I hate this xxxx about women having to just have babies and take care of the household....SOME OF US DON'T WANT JUST THAT! All of this crap was created by a man wanting to make an excuse for being so xxxxing irresponsible and letting the woman take care of the burdens of children and family.

Granted, we some of us do want families, and want the whole TRADITIONAL life, but that should not only validate us as equals, but it should PUSH US UP TO THE HIGHER RANKING SEX, that we STRIVE to do all that...? It only makes sense to do it all, and get the credit for it right? Perfect example, Joe Schmo and I go to the same school....we get just about the same grades, only mine are a bit higher....Our resume looks almost identical..We get hired to work at the same company...WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY YYYYYY would Joe get paid more???????? Just because I have a vagina between my legs? HUH? It doesn't make sense! There's no "heavy lifting" as some of u JACKASSES stated that women are made weaker....So WHYYYY? Hum....yea, we NEED feminism and feminists to put pressure on us...because I don't want my daughter (future) to have to deal with this unbalanced, unequal society....

PS: I am very mad, and I hope it shows in my post

[loseyourname]

Originally posted by violette829 Hum....yea, we NEED feminism and feminists to put pressure on us...because I don't want my daughter (future) to have to deal with this unbalanced, unequal society....

Can't we just have humanists? Does it not run contrary to the ideal of egalitarianism to set yourself apart as a feminist? I can certainly see the value of the movement, but it isn't perfect. I don't think I ever said abolish it completely; just lose the foci on collectivism, separatism, and materialism. Go for a meritocracy instead, and ignore all other considerations, including gender.

Perhaps I'm just being a little too idealistic. What can I say? I've never been discriminated against.

[Anonymouse]

You know people seem to be missing the point, society IS unequal, stop trying believe there is "equality".

Once again, yet another "feminists" merely agrees with feminism not because she came upon that by deduction, but because it appealed to her senses of egalitarianism.

I ask again, egalitarianism is a false and fraudulent idea that has been used on dumbasses who buy into it and has cost the lives of millions, just to die for that one idiotic idea.

[loseyourname]

Originally posted by Anonymouse I ask again, egalitarianism is a false and fraudulent idea that has been used on dumbasses who buy into it and has cost the lives of millions, just to die for that one idiotic idea.

Depends on what you mean by the term. All I ask if equal consideration, and decisions about hiring, wages, lifestyle based solely on the merit of a person's individual talent, regardless of gender. I'll never say women are the same as men, but there exists so much difference between two men or two women that gender alone isn't such a big deal to me.

[patlajan]

Originally posted by loseyourname Depends on what you mean by the term. All I ask if equal consideration, and decisions about hiring, wages, lifestyle based solely on the merit of a person's individual talent, regardless of gender. I'll never say women are the same as men, but there exists so much difference between two men or two women that gender alone isn't such a big deal to me.

I agree with the equal pay for equal work part completely. However, for example I see way too many female cops around. And that's equal pay for unequal work in my opinion. If the job requires certain physical capabilities I don't think we should go out of our way to create diversity. Same thing with the armed serivces.