Traditional man and country

Re: Traditional man and country

While they are a few good things to find in Evola's writings (I once gave a link to one if his books on this very forum) and related thinkers (see http://www.geocities.com/integral_tradition/texts.html), one should really go beyond their writings, theories and consider them for who they are, that is, modern critics of modernity. Nothing more, nothing less.
Is Evola the embodiement of "tradition" as he understands it? No, he is, with Guénon, one of its theoreticians.

Consider other thinkers outside the realm "integral tradition". Take the case of Nietzsche.
Is Nietzsche the Übermensch he phantasized in his philosophy (before ending up in an asylum)? Obviously not. He is anything but that.
If you cannot put your words into deeds, if you are unable to preach by example, your preaches soon prove out to be empty and vain.
In the case of Nietzsche, his fate in itself is the condemnation of his philosophy.

Compare this to Christ and his martyr followers, the pre-cited authors so ardently denounce/despise (mostly out of ignorance/misunderstanding, if not mediocrity).
Who is the true embodiment of solar virility, the embodiment of the triumph of will? The lamb of God who died willingly on the Cross or the narcisstic intellectuals who made up a few lofty sentences for modern readers to faint over?

[jgk3]

Re: Traditional man and country

Perhaps "The economy" needs to be put in perspective with traditionalism... I think this text should help, especially in returning the focus I intended of this thread, back to life.

WORK
THE DEMONIC NATURE
OF THE ECONOMY
I have previously discussed the analogy that exists between the single individual and a collective entity, and the legitimacy that this analogy was accorded in the ancient past. I have also remarked that in modern times the dimension of sociopolitical organization has descended from a plane in which the vital, material part is subordinated to higher faculties, forces, and goals, to a plane in which this higher dimension is lacking or, worse yet, through an inversion, deprived of its own dimension and subordinated to inferior functions, which in the single individual correspond to the merely physical plane. The counterpart of this, in the State, is the economy. I will now consider the phenomenon in question from the perspective of this particular aspect.
Sombart's thesis that we are living in the age of the economy expresses in an accurate manner the above-mentioned anomaly. He is referring, first of all, to the general type of an entire civilization. All the exterior aspects of power and of technical-industrial progress of contemporary civilization do not detract from its involutive character—rather they depend on it, because all this apparent "progress" has been realized almost exclusively in terms of the economic interest, insofar as this interest has overshadowed all others. Nowadays it is possible to speak of a demonic nature of the economy, because in both individual and collective life the economic factor is the most important, real, and decisive one. Moreover, the tendency to converge every value and interest on the economic and productive plane is not perceived by Western man as an unprecedented aberration, but instead as something normal and natural, and not as an eventual necessity, but as something that must be accepted, willed, developed, and praised.
165
166 WORK—THE DEMONIC NATURE OF THE ECONOMY
As I have said before, when the right and primacy of interests higher than those of the socioeconomic plane are not upheld, there is no hierarchy, and even if there is one, it is only a counterfeit; this is also true when a higher authority is not accorded to those men, groups, and bodies representing and defending these values and interests. In this case, an economic era is already by definition a fundamentally anarchical and antihierarchical era; it represents a subversion of the normal order. The materialization and the soullessness of all the domains of life that characterize it divest of any higher meaning all those problems and conflicts that are regarded as important within it.
This subversive character is found both in Marxism and in its apparent nemesis, modern capitalism. Thus, it is absurd and deplorable for those who pretend to represent the political "Right" to fail to leave the dark and small circle that is determined by the demonic power of the economy—a circle including capital-ism, Marxism, and all the intermediate economic degrees.
This should be firmly upheld by those who today are taking a stand against the forces of the Left. Nothing is more evident than that modern capitalism is just as subversive as Marxism. The materialistic view of life on which both systems are based is identical; both of their ideals are qualitatively identical, including the premises connected to a world the center of which is constituted of technology, science, production, "productivity," and "consumption." And as long as we only talk about economic classes, profit, salaries, and production, and as long as we believe that real human progress is determined by a particular system of distribution of wealth and goods, and that, generally speaking, human progress is measured by the degree of wealth or indigence—then we are not even close to what is essential, even though new theories, beyond Marx-ism and capitalism, might be formulated.
The starting point should be, instead, a firm rejection of the principle formulated by Marxism, which summarizes the entire subversion at work today: The economy is our destiny. We must declare in an uncompromising way that in a normal civilization the economy and economic interests—understood as the satisfaction of material needs and their more or less artificial appendices—have always played, and always will play, a subordinated function. We must also uphold that beyond the economic sphere an order of higher political, spiritual, and heroic values has to emerge, an order that neither knows nor tolerates merely economic classes and does not know the division between "capitalists" and "proletarians"; an order solely in terms of which are to be defined the
WORK-THE DEMONIC NATURE OE THE ECONOMY 167
things worth living and dying for. We must also uphold the need for a true hierarchy and for different dignities, with a higher function of power installed at the top, namely the imperium.
But where is the battle waged today in these terms? The "social question" and various "political problems" are increasingly losing any higher meaning, and are being defined on the basis of the most primitive conditions of physical existence, conditions that are then made absolute and removed from any higher concern. The notion of justice is reduced to this or that system of distribution of economic goods; the notion of civilization is measured mostly by that of production; and the focus of people's attention tends to be on topics such as production, work, productivity, economic classes, salaries, private or public property, exploitation of the workers, and special-interest groups. According to supporters of capitalism and to Marxists, nothing else exists or matters in this world. According to Marxists, everything that exists is regarded as a "su-perstructure" and as a derivative; supporters of free-market economy are not inclined to be as drastic, though their standard and main concern is always the economy.
All this is proof of the true pathology of our civilization. The economic factor exercises a hypnosis and a tyranny over modern man. And, as often occurs in hypnosis, what the mind focuses on eventually becomes real. Modern man is making possible what every normal and complete civilization has always regarded as an aberration or as a bad joke—namely, that the economy and the social problem in terms of the economy are his destiny.
Thus, in order to posit a new principle, what is needed is not to oppose one economic formula with another, but instead to radically change attitudes, to reject without compromise the materialistic premises from which the economic factor has been perceived as absolute.
What must be questioned is not the value of this or that economic system, but the value of the economy itself. Thus, despite the fact that the antithesis between capitalism and Marxism dominates the background of recent times, it must be regarded as a pseudo-antithesis. In free-market economies, as well as in Marxist societies, the myth of production and its corollaries (e.g., standardization, monopolies, cartels, technocracy) are subject to the "hegemony" of the economy, becoming the primary factor on which the material conditions of existence are based. Both systems regard as "backward" or as "underdeveloped" those civilizations that do not amount to "civilizations based on labor and production"—
168 WORK—THE DEMONIC NATURE OE THE ECONOMY
namely, those civilizations that, luckily for themselves, have not yet been caught up in the feverish industrial exploitation of every natural resource, the social and productive enslavement of all human possibilities, and the exaltation of technical and industrial standards; in other words, those civilizations that still enjoy a certain space and a relative freedom. Thus, the true antithesis is not between capitalism and Marxism, but between a system in which the economy rules supreme (no matter in what form) and a system in which the economy is subordinated to extra-economic factors, within a wider and more complete order, such as to bestow a deep meaning upon human life and foster the development of its highest possibilities. This is the premise for a true restorative reaction, beyond "Left" and "Right," beyond capitalism's abuses and Marxist subversion. The necessary conditions are an inner detoxification, a becoming "normal" again ("normal" in the higher meaning of the term), and a renewed capability to differentiate between base and noble interests. No intervention from the outside can help; any external action at best might accompany this process.
In order to resolve the problem, it is necessary, first of all, to reject the "neutral" interpretation of the economic phenomenon proper to a deviated sociology. The very economic life has a body and soul of its own, and inner moral factors have always determined its meaning and spirit. Such spirit, as Sombart has clearly shown, should be distinguished from the various forms of production, distribution, and organization of economic goods; it may vary depending on individual instances and it bestows a very different scope and meaning on the economic factor. The pure homo oeconomicus is a fiction or the by-product of an evidently degenerated specialization. Thus, in every normal civilization a purely economic man—that is, the one who sees the economy not as an order of means but rather as an order of ends to which he dedicates his main activities—was always rightly regarded as a man of lower social extraction: lower in a spiritual sense, and furthermore in a social or political one. In essence, it is necessary to return to normalcy, to restore the natural dependency of the economic factor on inner, moral factors and to act upon them.
Once this is acknowledged, it will be easy to recognize the inner causes in the actual world (which have the economy as their common denominator) that preclude any solution that does not translate into a steeper fall to a lower level. I have previously suggested that the uprising of the masses has mainly been caused by the fact that every social difference has been reduced to those that
WORK—THE DEMONIC NATURE OF THE ECONOMY 169
exist between mere economic classes and by the fact that under the aegis of antitraditional liberalism, property and wealth, once free from any bond or higher value, have become the only criteria of social differences. However, beyond the strict limitations that were established within the overall hierarchical system prior to the ascent of the economy, the superiority and the right of a class as a merely economic class may rightly be contested in the name of elementary human values. And it was precisely here that the subversive ideol-ogy introduced itself, by making an anomalous and degenerative situation into an absolute one and acting as if nothing else had previously existed or could exist outside economic classes, or besides external and unfair social conditions that are determined by wealth alone. However, all this is false, since such conditions could develop only within a truncated society: only in such a society may the concepts of "capitalist" and "proletarian" be defined. These terms lack any foundation in a normal civilization, because in such a civilization the counterpart constituted by extra-economic values portrays the corresponding human types as some-thing radically different from what today is categorized as "capitalist" or "proletarian." Even in the domain of the economy, a normal civilization provides specific jus-tification for certain differences in condition, dignity, and function.23

[Haykakan]

Re: Traditional man and country

The rich very much successfully manipulate the economic system in their favor, i dought anyone can truely dispute this fact.I think anon is implying that if left alone the free market system will serve humanity better but this assertion is very much flawed.There is a reason why every society on earth tries to controll the free market to some degree, the ups and downs of a truely free market are just too drastic for most people to handle and effect lives in a similar drastic manner.Also a point to consider is that a free market is a consept created by humans and is very much effected by human behavior.I just finished doing research on economic cycles two semesters ago and it was very interesting to see that the economic cycle has not changed since it was first observed thousends of years ago.The cycle exists because of human nature, a good example is what happened to the economy recently, when things are going well economicly people tend to barrow and spend as if things will continue in this manner forever, They eventually endup overextending them selves and must liquidate to survive economicly.This is what drives the ups and downs of economic cycles(human nature) and everyone can take advantage of this cycle not just the elites, but the elites manipulate the cycle through institutions like the fed to make the economy do what they want. The market was successfully manipulates by the very few since its inception in the usa and it has never stopped being manipulated by the very rich and powerfull to make them even more rich and powerfull.Economic cycles exist because of human nature and they are manipulated by the rich and powerfull to serve their own interests.This last down turn of the cycle was predicted long ago but was made more severe by the fed derregulating banking , this made the boom cycle of the economy get much higher then it would have gotten by letting people barrow more then they could pay back, this inturn assured that the economic bust which would follow would neccesseraly be much more severe then if the said regulations had been left in place.While anyone who knows of the economic cycle can take adventage of it, the rich by using financial institutions (fed, buying power, markets,banks...) are the onlyones who can maximixse their profits off the cycle.The point is that economic systems including the free market are hardly free and are subject to the human behaviour(even if you derregulated everything there is to derregulate) and the elite can and does manipulate the economy to serve its own interests and has been doing it in the USA since the inception of the stockmarket.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Traditional man and country

The Federal Reserve and its policy of fractional-reserve banking is probably the main reason if not one of the most primary culprits of all of this.

As far as the "wealthy" are concerned, at least in America, their wealth will not mean much. The continued devaluation of the dollar which has been exponential since 1913 and under Obama's "New Deal II" policies, it will only get worse.

Anon, as a person living outside of the American system, on the US/CAN border, working between the US and Canada and constantly comparing the political/geopolitical.... I could see how the wealthy are using the American system to get richer. For example, there are times where the CAN/US dollar ratio fluctuates so much that just by exchanging CAN dollars to US dollars, waiting a month then exchanging back can give you a 25% return. So if you were a well off Canadian, you could take $100,000, exchange it to US currency, wait a month and exchange it back and make $25,000 income. The same goes for EUR/US exchange, etc. And all this is tied into the fluctuations of the OIL PRICES, Stock Market. So in essence, you could be doing the same with American Currency, using it to build up reserves in other currency so that if the US dollar crumbles, it wouldn't affect you since you were prepared to jump ship and "get the hell out of dodge".

[Eddo211]

Re: Traditional man and country

Sorry, I thought you were serious in stating that so I addressed it as such.

Its cool Anon, don’t even mention it.

I am just amazed at the level of intelligence and wealth of information that exists within the majority of Armenians on this website including our none Armenian good friends who honor and support us from around the world.

Cheers

[hrai]

Re: Traditional man and country

Sometimes I wished I knew for sure which way to point my chariot. hahaha

Just forwards will be fine.

[Eddo211]

Re: Traditional man and country

If you think everything is under control like some giant web of conspiracy, you need to rethink that world view. Communism, National Socialism, and International Socialism, have all tried in some form or another to control absolutely. They have failed.............

I hope you don’t think I am a Socialist after screaming Freedom and Unity at every chance I get……..and you are right Anon, there are a lot of information that comes with free market (which I believe in) and that of course comes with its major side effects of wrong info and wild outrageous conspiracy theories that will demand approach with caution and suspicions to decipher through. One must act as if a detective and investigate for facts on the ground.

BTW, the part that you quoted me was meant to crack a smile…….nothing ever goes as planned. The rest are facts on the ground.

Sometimes I wished I knew for sure which way to point my chariot. hahaha

[Eddo211]

Re: Traditional man and country

Well, there are many more reasons why the US is in this mess, and taking to rest of the world with it, but it might take 3-4 hundred pages to explain everything that has occurred since the turn of the century.

If you look at the way the federal reserve works, I think there is enough evidence to show that the cash flow is systematically controlled so that not everyone goes bankrupt or enters poverty all at one time but rather in phases so as to not disrupt the entire population. While the US is slowly brought down as the world's leading empire, the wealthy will make their way into India/China/Brazil where a greater middle class can be created and further exploitation can continue. These banking giants have been in the business of lending money to governments and kingdoms for centuries and they will continue to do so.

The Federal Reserve act that was signed on Devil’s Island by a bunch of international Coyote bankers and later on pushed true the congress on Christmas eve.....designed not only to put a certain percentage of dept on every dollar lend to the Government but also full control of

A) how much money is printed, and

B) market interest rates

Now that gives them full control and unlimited power.
Same thing as the reason that caused the American Revolutionary War for Independence (1780) from England who wanted the population (colonies) to take loans from their banks instead of trading or gold.

BTW, there is no trouble for the powers to be.........everything is going as planned.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Traditional man and country

Bernanke, Obama, Geithner or anyone else in the ivory tower has absolutely no control over what is happening currently regarding the downward spiral of the economy. While they may have set up a system of allowing themselves benefits, created a welfare state, or took advantage of wealth and opportunities via legislation they enacted which are all essential wealth transfers from to the political class, that is not a result of the "laws of economics." That is precisely the reasons we are in this mess - that's called "mixed economy," regulation, intervention, etc. (socialism by any other name is socialism). However, what's happening now is precisely what we call the "laws of economics" are triggering and trying to force a market correction for all the inefficiencies and interventions that have been going over the last several decades.

Well, there are many more reasons why the US is in this mess, and taking to rest of the world with it, but it might take 3-4 hundred pages to explain everything that has occurred since the turn of the century.

If you look at the way the federal reserve works, I think there is enough evidence to show that the cash flow is systematically controlled so that not everyone goes bankrupt or enters poverty all at one time but rather in phases so as to not disrupt the entire population. While the US is slowly brought down as the world's leading empire, the wealthy will make their way into India/China/Brazil where a greater middle class can be created and further exploitation can continue. These banking giants have been in the business of lending money to governments and kingdoms for centuries and they will continue to do so.

[Sako]

Re: Traditional man and country

Saco jan if we don't question things we will never make any progress.It was once taught that the earth was flat and that it was the center of the universe but thanks to people who questioned these basic principles of their time we now know better.I am sorry if i did not answer something you asked me, i just don't have the time to read everything everyday and will have even less time once i start my next class. If there is something specific you want me to comment on or answer please tell me what it and ill try to respond, you can pm me if you wish.

You could've said this sooner, Haykakan. I thought you were ignoring me.

Anyways, my entire posts are filled with I think serious arguments against some of the things you've said. Read them when you have time.