Traditional man and country

[Haykakan]

Re: Traditional man and country

"Even the "elite" are subject to entropy, even the "elite" are not immune from the laws of economics."
The elites make the laws of economics and they make society follow the ones that benefit them the most.
Anonymouse you are very much correct in the assertion that we are all closed minded to one degree or another but those of us who try to be as open minded as we can try to look for answers the best way we know how.Science is not "noble", it is a process, a tool we use to explain things we don't know and it is by far the most effective tool at providing answers that make sence to our limited-partly open minds.You seem to be placing me and others into catagories again "But professors, intellectuals, scientists, media pundits, liberal thinkers, and some former people on this forum (Siamanto, arabaliozian I am looking in your direction) etc., with their gifted mighty powers of speaking about how self-righteous and noble science and research is and in the process impliedly advance the notion that there are such things as an open mind, and they happen to belong to that school of thought because from mere words, this school of thought has claimed truths, such as evolution being the talisman of knowledge which explains all our woes and joys, religion is evil and those who subscribe to it must be very "narrow-minded," that 'race' is nothing more than 'skin-deep,' that to fight for culture and tradition is "xenophobia, racism and supremacy," and has no place in the "marketplace of ideas," that to believe in the omnipotent power of the state and "democracy" is the "way out." " Please stop placing people into catagories which exist in you imagination. I would bet you anything the people you just refered to disagree with each other on the issues you bring up and cannot be labeled like you are doing.Science, observatin and rational thought are the best things we have to work with to explain the world around us and our place in it.Just because we are limited does not mean we should stop trying to stretch those limits or try to look beyond them.You seem to claim that objective research is impossible but i disagree, if you are doing research and you really do want to know the truth and not some idealized version of it then it is very possible in as much as our limited minds concieve it to be.You sure have a lot of hostility twords liberals and whatever your reasons are i wont venture to guess but the problem is you start labeling others into this catagory automaticly because they believe in science and being open minded and this is just not right.I don't consider myself a liberal or anything else for that matter, i am just a guy trying to figure xxxx out as much my own partly limited/partly open mind will allow me to do so.You seem to critisize anything that would give us some answers yet you offer nothing as a alternative so ill let you clearify what your point or train of thought is.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Traditional man and country

Even the "elite" are subject to entropy, even the "elite" are not immune from the laws of economics.

Maybe not the social and public "elite" but there are those that are above the laws of economics.

[Barshimnia]

Re: Traditional man and country

Where you see control, I see a freeway with a minimum speed limit of 65.

AHH! see I am not talking about control for a better social life but the kind that protects the elite.

[Haykakan]

Re: Traditional man and country

"But notice, those that usually preach these high and mighty ideals of "open-mindedness" are the ones who precisely practice the opposite, by holding fast to such orthodoxies as egalitarianism, evolution, and all the other things that pass for 'truth' and the preferred and accepted discourse in academia and public fora. Anyone who questions their vaunted ideas and prisms is derided as being 'ignorant,' 'narrow-minded,' 'unscientific,' etc."
Those who practice good science or think rationally and persue knowledge have to be open minded and it is a good thing to be so. If a said things can be proven then why should they not be defended? If you have a rational! argument against a theory or subject then present it and prove it wrong we are all ears.Evolution has strong proof supporting it and it like all theories are open to scruitiny but the scruitiny has to make sence and be based on rational thought.I have to confess my ignorence regarding "egalitarianism" because i do not even know what that is but notice i am not ashamed of confessing "i don't know" because there is nothing wrong with not knowing something but closing your eyes to facts when they are presented i have a problem with. I appreciate the absence of hostility from you in these last posts and would appreciate if this absence continues.
Saco jan if we don't question things we will never make any progress.It was once taught that the earth was flat and that it was the center of the universe but thanks to people who questioned these basic principles of their time we now know better.I am sorry if i did not answer something you asked me, i just don't have the time to read everything everyday and will have even less time once i start my next class. If there is something specific you want me to comment on or answer please tell me what it and ill try to respond, you can pm me if you wish.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Traditional man and country

Where you see control, I see a freeway with a minimum speed limit of 65.

Same here, but the officer didn't seem to see it that way

[Barshimnia]

Re: Traditional man and country

I find that when a society obsesses too much on social justice, they end up putting shackles or a gross filter on man's natural expression, raising him with veil between his personal nature and the world he lives in. In our society today, we're expected to conform to an existence that as Haykakan has pointed out (albeit some differences in what he's addressing) to be a deviation, an invention superimposed on nature. All the Dos and Don'ts are layed out for you conveniently in a depersonalized charter of rights and they are enforced by the government. They serve to guide our behavior as though we were rats in a maze, seeking cheese who's flavour is shelter and prosperity for individual gain. This is "enlightened", "acceptable", "advanced", "fair" in the modern world.

What do I say? Take a big sledgehammer and shatter that ugly maze, and tell that rat to be a man, or die. That is the essence of hierarchy, nature balancing itself out. Hierarchy isn't a game about might though, it's not the biggest bully who wins all, in fact, it is the responsibility of men to destroy their tyrants, given that they can lead better. It is a game of culture, civilization, honour, duty, and respect towards ones nature, automatically engaging the individual into something greater than himself, that is the essence of tradition.

Without tradition, how can you determine your nature? Without God, or something divine, what is the point of your existence and why are you here to begin with? Where do you go, what do you follow?

Without tradition, all you'll ever come up with are equations describing attributes of things, or worse yet, making man start from square -1 in trying to figure himself out: living life in the cruise control of volatile emotions, never giving his soul a chance to relax and look inward, to stop comparing or trying to accord oneself to the outside world and all its magical shapes and colours that have no eternal substance to ground them as "real".

The goal of tradition is to allow the individual to participate in a level of consciousness that is beyond the worldly phenomenon that your bodily senses are built for parsing. People who live and breathe tradition dwell together in this supra-natural plane of understanding. This is where the drive of the occult comes from, dominating their expression in everything humans do, be it in recreation, meditation, observation (sciences), warfare. They just know, deep down that all of this worldly phenomenon, and all their activities which they engage in, are just a very funny, illusory expression of the divine, and their religiosity serves to maintain this understanding and allow for one's this relationship with both the Creator and the created, a happy one.

This destroys modernity because it destroys the sense that you are an individual, trapped in this inadequate state of being that needs resources, acceptance from others, pleasure, etc... in order to "avoid death or suffering at all costs". There's no need to worry, Akuna Matata, you are God. The only failure, the only horrible death, is to live your whole life not knowing that.

Modernity preaches ignorance of the divine in the quest for (new) knowledge, It discriminates the divine, ridicules it, and claiming to have found a greater truth, replaces it with ______. You tell me. I'd like to hear your answer.

You have an excellent command of the language, but I get confused at times. Sometimes it is difficult to tell whether or not you believe in a concept, but I am sure that as time goes by I will get to understand you better.

I like your passion it breathes life, it breathes fire. I also like your definition of tradition. The problem that I see is in actualization of these ideologies by those in power. Something always seems to go astray and ideologies, no matter how divine, become a mere tool in the hands of those who can manipulate it.

In the Middle Ages there were gaols and dungeons. In order to control masses they punished people quiet severely within the pubic arena making an absolute spectacle of it and ruled through fear. In modernity our society has changed so has the need for control. It is no longer our bodies that are being chastised but our very soles. "Prisons, schools, factories, barracks, hospitals and etc all share a common organization, in which it is possible to control the use of an individual's time and space hour by hour."(Michele Foucault)

I wonder how far is tradition a contributing factor to the imprisonment of our sole. Modernity discriminates the divine, ridicules it, and claiming to have found a greater truth, replaces it with endless games for the lucky ones and endless poverty and continuous struggle for not so lucky ones. The end result is however the same control of an individual.

I will end this quote with one of my favorite poetries
"One must be happy to find God
For those who invent him out of grief
Move too fast and search too little
For the intimacy of his ardent absence." (The complete French Poems of Rainer Maria Rilke- translated by Poulin Jr.)

[Sako]

Re: Traditional man and country

Many of us prefer to answer these questions on our own vs taking the word of some people who lived thousends of years ago and claimed to know gods way.

This is like saying I'll go to school and learn algebra MY way (or something else)!

Doing things your way is very dangerous because you have a very good chance of wavering onto a very confusing path. Everything we need is already here. We just need to focus and see what is closer to our heart and move in that direction.

And by the way, you didn't answer my post, AGAIN! If this is how your going to be doing it then I have nothing more to say.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Traditional man and country

Quoted for truth.

And the truth shall set you free.

[Haykakan]

Re: Traditional man and country

"Without tradition, how can you determine your nature? Without God, or something divine, what is the point of your existence and why are you here to begin with? Where do you go, what do you follow?"
Many of us prefer to answer these questions on our own vs taking the word of some people who lived thousends of years ago and claimed to know gods way.As i am sure you are aware traditons change over time as well they should as a matter of fact both tradition and religion eveolve into very different things then what they started out to be.Chrystianity started out with a small band of people and evolved into branches so different that they have been killing each other over these differences.The problem with religion and some traditions is that they ask you to believe something based on faith and claim that you will get the rewarded after death for doing what they say, so there is no way of verifying that your faith actually payed off at the end unless you die.Tradition preaches a set of values which may or may not become obsolete or irrelavent over time so it too changes.As you can see neither religion nore tradition are "set in stone".There is nothing wrong with questing for new knowledge and it should be incouraged at every level.It takes time and work to get answers but they do come and we get inlightened by them.

[jgk3]

Re: Traditional man and country

I do not believe in religion and religious people may perceive me as an atheist, yet I consider myself a follower of Christ. I do not believe in our medical system given medical profession was created to capitalize on the discovery of drugs and to create an elite society. I may be perceived as a witch yet I consider myself as a student of old home remedies. I do not believe in our legal system, given it was created to protect the medical profession and the elite society. I may be perceived as an opportunist yet the very core of my existence is based on social justice. I do not believe in our education system and I may be perceived as a lazy person yet I have been a student one form or another all my life and on and on...

I do believe that religion, medical and legal profession, education and military systems, the very foundation of our democratic society are all means of discipline and punishment for the modern society to control the masses (modern slavery). Now this is not exactly my theory but that of (Michel Foucault) which I am in agreement with. Therefore you can see my dilemma in going about my daily life within a system that I do not believe in, just a fool going about her day; a Hypocrite?? Sure

A Hierarchical system however also has its many flaws in reality, as idealistic as it may sound in theory (but so does the Democratic system). How would you propose for a Hierarchical system to protect those who are vulnerable? After all we will always have the elderlies, the victims of domestic violence and incest, the developmentally disabled and etc. Are those to become at the mercy of the strong? Who will determine the definition of noble? Who will set forth the criteria for enlightenment and spiritual order? Whose truth will we live?

I find that when a society obsesses too much on social justice, they end up putting shackles or a gross filter on man's natural expression, raising him with veil between his personal nature and the world he lives in. In our society today, we're expected to conform to an existence that as Haykakan has pointed out (albeit some differences in what he's addressing) to be a deviation, an invention superimposed on nature. All the Dos and Don'ts are layed out for you conveniently in a depersonalized charter of rights and they are enforced by the government. They serve to guide our behavior as though we were rats in a maze, seeking cheese who's flavour is shelter and prosperity for individual gain. This is "enlightened", "acceptable", "advanced", "fair" in the modern world.

What do I say? Take a big sledgehammer and shatter that ugly maze, and tell that rat to be a man, or die. That is the essence of hierarchy, nature balancing itself out. Hierarchy isn't a game about might though, it's not the biggest bully who wins all, in fact, it is the responsibility of men to destroy their tyrants, given that they can lead better. It is a game of culture, civilization, honour, duty, and respect towards ones nature, automatically engaging the individual into something greater than himself, that is the essence of tradition.

Without tradition, how can you determine your nature? Without God, or something divine, what is the point of your existence and why are you here to begin with? Where do you go, what do you follow?

Without tradition, all you'll ever come up with are equations describing attributes of things, or worse yet, making man start from square -1 in trying to figure himself out: living life in the cruise control of volatile emotions, never giving his soul a chance to relax and look inward, to stop comparing or trying to accord oneself to the outside world and all its magical shapes and colours that have no eternal substance to ground them as "real".

The goal of tradition is to allow the individual to participate in a level of consciousness that is beyond the worldly phenomenon that your bodily senses are built for parsing. People who live and breathe tradition dwell together in this supra-natural plane of understanding. This is where the drive of the occult comes from, dominating their expression in everything humans do, be it in recreation, meditation, observation (sciences), warfare. They just know, deep down that all of this worldly phenomenon, and all their activities which they engage in, are just a very funny, illusory expression of the divine, and their religiosity serves to maintain this understanding and allow for one's this relationship with both the Creator and the created, a happy one.

This destroys modernity because it destroys the sense that you are an individual, trapped in this inadequate state of being that needs resources, acceptance from others, pleasure, etc... in order to "avoid death or suffering at all costs". There's no need to worry, Akuna Matata, you are God. The only failure, the only horrible death, is to live your whole life not knowing that.

Modernity preaches ignorance of the divine in the quest for (new) knowledge, It discriminates the divine, ridicules it, and claiming to have found a greater truth, replaces it with ______. You tell me. I'd like to hear your answer.