Traditional man and country

[Haykakan]

Re: Traditional man and country

So you're theory suggests that religion, money and some other arbitrarily picked social norms are outside of this "human way"? Doesn't that strike you somewhat as a bad way of accounting for the whole of human behavior and interaction in communities? To place only our most primitive setting in the forest or jungle, where we only recently discovered money, as the most natural, rudimentary expression of "the human way"?

Doesn't this strike you at all as cherry picking taken to an extreme? I mean afterall, it is just one tribe on the earth you've found. On top of this, you are implying that the rest of the world isn't remotely anywhere near the level of non-materialism this tribe previously knew, perhaps because they 1. Use money, 2. have father-son relationships, or 3. because they have sexual taboos.

I dunno... It's just not a very convincing argument for me.

Geneticly humans are the same as they were when we all lived in hunting and gathering societies.This means we are still hardwired the same way we were back then and modern day society and its influances are what make us different today from our ancestors.To be even more accurate human genetic diversity is very much limiteed when compared to other animals including chimps, this is because not so long ago we almost went extinct and are all decendents of the few survivors of that era.This is not cherrypicking because they were probably the last such tribe left to discover and we wont see them or their kind again, plus plenty of other tribes discovered before them lived a similar lifestyle.Everything that we know in our world today(money,modern social norms,modern religion..) is relatively a new idea when you compare it to the millions of years humans have been around.Civilization is only 3 or 4 thousend years old, now take into account that there are a thousend thousend years in one million and also the fact that humans are about 3 million years old and you can see that everything we know today (farming,metalworking,modern religion,social norms..) are really quite new.Please don't take my word for it but go ahead and research it yourself.You should always try to verify information when possible.People have not changed significantly in the physical form and what came naturally to a human back then would come naturally to a human today if not for the effects mentioned.I am not suggesting that we all get nakid and go live in the jungle but i am suggesting that our present way of living is artificial to us and perhaps we can find a better way by understanding ourselves better.

[Haykakan]

Re: Traditional man and country

I'm sorry, I left my blah blah blah translator in the car. But from the looks of it I think it's more vagueness, unsubstantiated assertions and the way you think the world 'ought' to be. I can't discuss with minds that are more closed than the usual, who hide behind the mantle of "science."

You keep saying the same thing over and over.Really? blah blah is all you can come up with?If you can't discuss then please don't, no one is making you.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Traditional man and country

Outside factors like religion,money and social norms based on these and other concepts prevent us from living the human way.If this means to you that "environment determines our consciousness' then so be it i couldn't care less.

So what you're saying is we should live like Adam and Eve ala the movie "The Blue Lagoon". Or maybe more like the kids in the "Lord of the Flies". Religion just didn't appear from thin air, it was developed over time to bring order to society.... to suppress mankind's animalistic and egoistic traits. As we move away from order, we create chaos, and revert back in time. Money wasn't created out of thin air (however, the federal reserve IS creating it out of thin air), it is a means of measuring the value of labor put into creating goods and services that other people need/want. Like you stated, social norms are just traditions/roles that encompass how we tie money, religion, etc. together. Liberalism only works in a Capitalistic society because Conservatives(wealthy people) pick up the slack and dictate what kind of jobs/pay rates the working class/liberal people should receive.

[Haykakan]

Re: Traditional man and country

So what you're saying is we should live like Adam and Eve ala the movie "The Blue Lagoon". Or maybe more like the kids in the "Lord of the Flies". Religion just didn't appear from thin air, it was developed over time to bring order to society.... to suppress mankind's animalistic and egoistic traits. As we move away from order, we create chaos, and revert back in time. Money wasn't created out of thin air (however, the federal reserve IS creating it out of thin air), it is a means of measuring the value of labor put into creating goods and services that other people need/want. Like you stated, social norms are just traditions/roles that encompass how we tie money, religion, etc. together. Liberalism only works in a Capitalistic society because Conservatives(wealthy people) pick up the slack and dictate what kind of jobs/pay rates the working class/liberal people should receive.

Read my posts before commenting please.I clearly stated that i am not saying we should get naked and go live in a forest and that my whole point is that we should better understand our humanity(ourselves) and consider living in a more human way.If you need religion to keep you in order then do it but i don't feel the same way and am quite capable of keeping myself in order.I know what money is and i already stated how it creates materialism and effects society in a negative manner.As for liberalism, i am not sure why you bring it up but i will say that it was created in a feudal society not capialistic one.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Traditional man and country

Read my posts before commenting please.I clearly stated that i am not saying we should get naked and go live in a forest and that my whole point is that we should better understand our humanity(ourselves) and consider living in a more human way.If you need religion to keep you in order then do it but i don't feel the same way and am quite capable of keeping myself in order.I know what money is and i already stated how it creates materialism and effects society in a negative manner.As for liberalism, i am not sure why you bring it up but i will say that it was created in a feudal society not capialistic one.

EVERYBODY has a religion... not having a religion is a religion. It's like someone saying I'm on a "diet". Everybody is on a diet.

[Haykakan]

Re: Traditional man and country

EVERYBODY has a religion... not having a religion is a religion. It's like someone saying I'm on a "diet". Everybody is on a diet.

Religion is a set of believes that help people explain the unexplained(especially what happens after life) and in some cases these believes also dictate how one should live his mortal life as well. I prefer to use science and rational thinking to explain the unexplained and i use my own set of values (not based on religion) to guide me through life.As for the afterlife if there is one we will know about it soon enoughf.If you really want to press the issue and say that science is then my religion then so be it, i have no problem with that.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Traditional man and country

Religion is a set of believes that help people explain the unexplained(especially what happens after life) and in some cases these believes also dictate how one should live his mortal life as well. I prefer to use science and rational thinking to explain the unexplained and i use my own set of values (not based on religion) to guide me through life.As for the afterlife if there is one we will know about it soon enoughf.If you really want to press the issue and say that science is then my religion then so be it, i have no problem with that.

Would that make you a scientologist? I think you caught my drift. So once you have created these set of values based on your rational thinking and your time tested life..... and say like when you're 70 or 80 years old, you write your findings in a book.... would that be a "religion"?

[Haykakan]

Re: Traditional man and country

Would that make you a scientologist? I think you caught my drift. So once you have created these set of values based on your rational thinking and your time tested life..... and say like when you're 70 or 80 years old, you write your findings in a book.... would that be a "religion"?

I dont know much about scientology but i dont think it is in line with my own beliefes. I think those guys don't allow the use of drugs to cure diseases or some crazy stuff like that and that is not at all what i believe.No it would be a book about my life experiences and my thoughts about life.Many people write such books and non are mistaken for religion.

[Yeznik]

Re: Traditional man and country

Religion is a set of believes that help people explain the unexplained(especially what happens after life) and in some cases these believes also dictate how one should live his mortal life as well. I prefer to use science and rational thinking to explain the unexplained and i use my own set of values (not based on religion) to guide me through life.As for the afterlife if there is one we will know about it soon enoughf.If you really want to press the issue and say that science is then my religion then so be it, i have no problem with that.

Your statement is a bit faulty, there are people who use science and rational thinking and also believe in God.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Traditional man and country

I dont know much about scientology but i dont think it is in line with my own beliefes. I think those guys don't allow the use of drugs to cure diseases or some crazy stuff like that and that is not at all what i believe.No it would be a book about my life experiences and my thoughts about life.Many people write such books and non are mistaken for religion.

What if democracy fell, kingdoms rose to power.... and say the King took that book after you died and called it "Haykakan's Bible" and mass distributed it to the population?