an article about Pavel Florensky

[Armanen]

Re: an article about Pavel Florensky

Yes this is what I am saying as you don't understand Avarair.

Axel, are you referring to the Battle of Avarayr (Avarair)?

[Muhaha]

Re: an article about Pavel Florensky

why should we live?

So we can figure out the Universe and thus the very meaning of our own lives.

Who are you trying to fool?

What are you talking about? How am I trying to fool anybody?

Do you or don't you admit the existence of truth?

Yes I do, I already answered that. Truth is whatever can be observed and proven.

If you do, you believe in it.

Yeah.....what's your point? Like I originally said, who's denying this?

If you don't, I'm wasting my time arguing with a clown.

I'm sorry you feel I'm a Clown. However, I'd like to point out that, I, as a Clown, have answered all of your questions. You still haven't answered my very first.

Here it is again:

What is the point of "Internal Freedom" if you're being thrown into a meat grinder?

[axel]

Re: an article about Pavel Florensky

Axel, are you referring to the Battle of Avarayr (Avarair)?

Yes.

[axel]

Re: an article about Pavel Florensky

So we can figure out the Universe and thus the very meaning of our own lives.

Why should be concerned about the universe or the meaning of our lives?
Is there any meaning after all? (This answer of yours suggests you believe life has a meaning. There is no rational basis for that.)

What are you talking about? How am I trying to fool anybody?

By saying you asked a question without being assertive where in fact your question was an implicit answer. When you ask "who doesn't..." in response to my argument, you're actually suggesting "everyone does".

Truth is whatever can be observed and proven.

It cannot be proven that truth exists.
Science relies on the hypothesis of laws governing the universe, the ‘uniformity of the laws of nature’ as Florensky puts it, which cannot be proven.

What is the point of "Internal Freedom" if you're being thrown into a meat grinder?

I answered it already, greatness.

Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

You have to despise this life so that you become free.
Otherwise you effectively remain trapped, fearful of death, as a slave of nature/matter.

2:1 For the ungodly said, reasoning with themselves, but not aright, Our life is short and tedious, and in the death of a man there is no remedy: neither was there any man known to have returned from the grave.
2:2 For we are born at all adventure: and we shall be hereafter as though we had never been: for the breath in our nostrils is as smoke, and a little spark in the moving of our heart:
2:3 Which being extinguished, our body shall be turned into ashes, and our spirit shall vanish as the soft air,
2:4 And our name shall be forgotten in time, and no man shall have our works in remembrance, and our life shall pass away as the trace of a cloud, and shall be dispersed as a mist, that is driven away with the beams of the sun, and overcome with the heat thereof.
2:5 For our time is a very shadow that passeth away; and after our end there is no returning: for it is fast sealed, so that no man cometh again.
2:6 Come on therefore, let us enjoy the good things that are present: and let us speedily use the creatures like as in youth.
2:7 Let us fill ourselves with costly wine and ointments: and let no flower of the spring pass by us:
2:8 Let us crown ourselves with rosebuds, before they be withered:
2:9 Let none of us go without his part of our voluptuousness: let us leave tokens of our joyfulness in every place: for this is our portion, and our lot is this.
2:10 Let us oppress the poor righteous man, let us not spare the widow, nor reverence the ancient gray hairs of the aged.
2:11 Let our strength be the law of justice: for that which is feeble is found to be nothing worth.
2:12 Therefore let us lie in wait for the righteous; because he is not for our turn, and he is clean contrary to our doings: he upbraideth us with our offending the law, and objecteth to our infamy the transgressings of our education.
2:13 He professeth to have the knowledge of God: and he calleth himself the child of the Lord.
2:14 He was made to reprove our thoughts.
2:15 He is grievous unto us even to behold: for his life is not like other men’s, his ways are of another fashion.
2:16 We are esteemed of him as counterfeits: he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness: he pronounceth the end of the just to be blessed, and maketh his boast that God is his father.
2:17 Let us see if his words be true: and let us prove what shall happen in the end of him.
2:18 For if the just man be the son of God, he will help him, and deliver him from the hand of his enemies.
2:19 Let us examine him with despitefulness and torture, that we may know his meekness, and prove his patience.
2:20 Let us condemn him with a shameful death: for by his own saying he shall be respected.
2:21 Such things they did imagine, and were deceived: for their own wickedness hath blinded them.
2:22 As for the mysteries of God, they knew them not: neither hoped they for the wages of righteousness, nor discerned a reward for blameless souls.
2:23 For God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of his own eternity.
2:24 Nevertheless through envy of the devil came death into the world: and they that do hold of his side do find it.

3:1 But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and there shall no torment touch them.
3:2 In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure is taken for misery,
3:3 And their going from us to be utter destruction: but they are in peace.
3:4 For though they be punished in the sight of men, yet is their hope full of immortality.
3:5 And having been a little chastised, they shall be greatly rewarded: for God proved them, and found them worthy for himself.
3:6 As gold in the furnace hath he tried them, and received them as a burnt offering.
3:7 And in the time of their visitation they shall shine, and run to and fro like sparks among the stubble.
3:8 They shall judge the nations, and have dominion over the people, and their Lord shall reign for ever.
3:9 They that put their trust in him shall understand the truth: and such as be faithful in love shall abide with him: for grace and mercy is to his saints, and he hath care for his elect.
3:10 But the ungodly shall be punished according to their own imaginations, which have neglected the righteous, and forsaken the Lord.
3:11 For whoso despiseth wisdom and nurture, he is miserable, and their hope is vain, their labours unfruitful, and their works unprofitable:
3:12 Their wives are foolish, and their children wicked:
3:13 Their offspring is cursed. Wherefore blessed is the barren that is undefiled, which hath not known the sinful bed: she shall have fruit in the visitation of souls.
3:14 And blessed is the eunuch, which with his hands hath wrought no iniquity, nor imagined wicked things against God: for unto him shall be given the special gift of faith, and an inheritance in the temple of the Lord more acceptable to his mind.
3:15 For glorious is the fruit of good labours: and the root of wisdom shall never fall away.
3:16 As for the children of adulterers, they shall not come to their perfection, and the seed of an unrighteous bed shall be rooted out.
3:17 For though they live long, yet shall they be nothing regarded: and their last age shall be without honour.
3:18 Or, if they die quickly, they have no hope, neither comfort in the day of trial.
3:19 For horrible is the end of the unrighteous generation.

http://ebible.org/kjv/Wisdom.htm

[axel]

Re: an article about Pavel Florensky

What is good is what advances the species.

Muhaha, I suggest you watch the movie Armanen mentioned earlier (Gattaca). Food for thought.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQeYa6CB07c&feature=related

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119177/

[Muhaha]

Re: an article about Pavel Florensky

Why should be concerned about the universe or the meaning of our lives?
Is there any meaning after all? (This answer of yours suggests you believe life has a meaning. There is no rational basis for that.)

I don't believe life has a meaning, but I also don't believe it doesn't. That's what I believe future generations will find out. Whether or not a meaning exists and if so, what is it.

It cannot be proven that truth exists.
Science relies on the hypothesis of laws governing the universe, the ‘uniformity of the laws of nature’ as Florensky puts it, which cannot be proven.

Yes it can, I just told you how. Science doesn't rely on the hypothesis of anything, where did you read that? Science is simply the study of whatever already exists.

You have to despise this life so that you become free.

What happens when a person becomes your version of "Free"?

Otherwise you effectively remain trapped

Trapped in what?

fearful of death

Why should someone not want to fear death? The fear of death is the greatest incentive to Evolution, Evolution can't occur without death. It's what every species on our planet uses to strive.

as a slave of nature/matter.

A slave of nature/matter? Are people not nature/matter?

I answered it already, greatness.

No you didn't, this doesn't in any way shape or form answer my question. Greatness? Greatness in what?

Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.


2:1 For the ungodly said, reasoning with themselves, but not aright, Our life is short and tedious, and in the death of a man there is no remedy: neither was there any man known to have returned from the grave.
2:2 For we are born at all adventure: and we shall be hereafter as though we had never been: for the breath in our nostrils is as smoke, and a little spark in the moving of our heart:
2:3 Which being extinguished, our body shall be turned into ashes, and our spirit shall vanish as the soft air,
2:4 And our name shall be forgotten in time, and no man shall have our works in remembrance, and our life shall pass away as the trace of a cloud, and shall be dispersed as a mist, that is driven away with the beams of the sun, and overcome with the heat thereof.
2:5 For our time is a very shadow that passeth away; and after our end there is no returning: for it is fast sealed, so that no man cometh again.
2:6 Come on therefore, let us enjoy the good things that are present: and let us speedily use the creatures like as in youth.
2:7 Let us fill ourselves with costly wine and ointments: and let no flower of the spring pass by us:
2:8 Let us crown ourselves with rosebuds, before they be withered:
2:9 Let none of us go without his part of our voluptuousness: let us leave tokens of our joyfulness in every place: for this is our portion, and our lot is this.
2:10 Let us oppress the poor righteous man, let us not spare the widow, nor reverence the ancient gray hairs of the aged.
2:11 Let our strength be the law of justice: for that which is feeble is found to be nothing worth.
2:12 Therefore let us lie in wait for the righteous; because he is not for our turn, and he is clean contrary to our doings: he upbraideth us with our offending the law, and objecteth to our infamy the transgressings of our education.
2:13 He professeth to have the knowledge of God: and he calleth himself the child of the Lord.
2:14 He was made to reprove our thoughts.
2:15 He is grievous unto us even to behold: for his life is not like other men’s, his ways are of another fashion.
2:16 We are esteemed of him as counterfeits: he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness: he pronounceth the end of the just to be blessed, and maketh his boast that God is his father.
2:17 Let us see if his words be true: and let us prove what shall happen in the end of him.
2:18 For if the just man be the son of God, he will help him, and deliver him from the hand of his enemies.
2:19 Let us examine him with despitefulness and torture, that we may know his meekness, and prove his patience.
2:20 Let us condemn him with a shameful death: for by his own saying he shall be respected.
2:21 Such things they did imagine, and were deceived: for their own wickedness hath blinded them.
2:22 As for the mysteries of God, they knew them not: neither hoped they for the wages of righteousness, nor discerned a reward for blameless souls.
2:23 For God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of his own eternity.
2:24 Nevertheless through envy of the devil came death into the world: and they that do hold of his side do find it.

3:1 But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and there shall no torment touch them.
3:2 In the sight of the unwise they seemed to die: and their departure is taken for misery,
3:3 And their going from us to be utter destruction: but they are in peace.
3:4 For though they be punished in the sight of men, yet is their hope full of immortality.
3:5 And having been a little chastised, they shall be greatly rewarded: for God proved them, and found them worthy for himself.
3:6 As gold in the furnace hath he tried them, and received them as a burnt offering.
3:7 And in the time of their visitation they shall shine, and run to and fro like sparks among the stubble.
3:8 They shall judge the nations, and have dominion over the people, and their Lord shall reign for ever.
3:9 They that put their trust in him shall understand the truth: and such as be faithful in love shall abide with him: for grace and mercy is to his saints, and he hath care for his elect.
3:10 But the ungodly shall be punished according to their own imaginations, which have neglected the righteous, and forsaken the Lord.
3:11 For whoso despiseth wisdom and nurture, he is miserable, and their hope is vain, their labours unfruitful, and their works unprofitable:
3:12 Their wives are foolish, and their children wicked:
3:13 Their offspring is cursed. Wherefore blessed is the barren that is undefiled, which hath not known the sinful bed: she shall have fruit in the visitation of souls.
3:14 And blessed is the eunuch, which with his hands hath wrought no iniquity, nor imagined wicked things against God: for unto him shall be given the special gift of faith, and an inheritance in the temple of the Lord more acceptable to his mind.
3:15 For glorious is the fruit of good labours: and the root of wisdom shall never fall away.
3:16 As for the children of adulterers, they shall not come to their perfection, and the seed of an unrighteous bed shall be rooted out.
3:17 For though they live long, yet shall they be nothing regarded: and their last age shall be without honour.
3:18 Or, if they die quickly, they have no hope, neither comfort in the day of trial.
3:19 For horrible is the end of the unrighteous generation.

http://ebible.org/kjv/Wisdom.htm

You're going to have to explain this giant list of Religious quotes written in Old English, they might as well be in Mandarin and I have no idea how they pertain to the subject at hand.



Also, if you don't mind, just so I can better understand the points you're trying to get across, what's your official ideological position on life etc? Are you a Christian Nihilist? That would definitely be unique, not many of those running around.

[axel]

Re: an article about Pavel Florensky

One has to die first in order to resurrect.
One has to contemplate the abyss of nihilism before one can find "the Father in spirit and truth" (John 4:23)

Also, there is no substitute for personal experience.
Understanding comes with time and effort as suggested previously.
And all things by the Grace of God.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVVb59lrbY0

[hipeter924]

Re: an article about Pavel Florensky

I think this topic belongs in Religion and Metaphysics. Because that seems to be what this discussion is.

Axel I think you are a relativist. Because if you don't believe in truth. Then that means that truth can only be relative to the person and thus basically meaningless. But I know I have a chair in my bedroom because I can see it, feel it, hear it, smell it, or taste it. I know I exist because non-existence would mean I don't exist so I wouldn't be able to talk on this forum or see, feel, hear, smell or taste a chair at all.

[Armanen]

Re: an article about Pavel Florensky

I think Axel was trying to make a point that one can question anything and forever but to what end? I think his approach is very esoteric and thus very refreshing to see. We have too many Vulcans (logic and reason only types) running around and their opposites as is.

[Haykakan]

Re: an article about Pavel Florensky

I dont see anything refreshing at all in axel's posts. He obviously has a poor understanding of how science works and is willing to base his life on quotes from thousends of years ago. Its all rather boring but i guess we all have the right to waist space on the net like our friend Ara.