Genocide of the Serbs

[Merv]

Re: Genocide of the Serbs

Then you are in the minority of Armenians.

I remember being very disapointed that many Armenians (not wanting to miss the chance to go on in public about the Armenian Genocide) were agitating about how Kossovo must be invaded because the Kossovo Albanians were being massacred by Serbs just like the Turks massacred Armenians and history would repeat itself unless NATO acted to prevent a genocide.

Just like xxxs say they say there is only one holocaust, and nothing else compares to it, Armenians conveniently forget that, after Armenia, the nation that lost the most % of its population in WW1 was Serbia. And the nation that lost the most % of its population in WW2 was, yes, Serbia again.

On the contrary, I did not want to start any arguments here. I do not expect anything from anyone, but I am merely interested in bringing the truth forward. So many Serbs like me listen on a monthly, weekly, if not daily basis in the Western media that Serbs are genocidal, are rapists, "ethnic cleansers," monsters, etc. I don't deny that there were many atrocities perpetrated by our side in the 1990s (I am ashamed of any atrocity perpetrated in my name), but there were very many by the other sides against us in the 1990s as well (the West covered these up), and the historical context is crucial (if people knew about WWII Croatia/Bosnia, they would understand why Croatian and Bosnian Serbs were so opposed to the independence of these two countries from Yugoslavia). It is quite simply refreshing to tell the truth (in real life, on an online forum, such as this), and to simply have some people respond with understanding, with sympathy, as you all have here. Thank you, all.

Just to be factually correct, also, you are right about WWI, but about WWII not exactly. The largest victims (as an ethnic group) were Jews and Gypsies, followed by Russians, Poles, and Serbs. As for what countries experienced the worst killing rates as a whole (not specifying the ethnicity of the victim), it was first Poland, and then the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia were tied in 2nd place.

[Merv]

Re: Genocide of the Serbs

A possible example of an Armenian parasitically using events in Yugoslavia to publicise the Armenian genocide? See http://www.armenianweekly.com/2010/0...rk-conference/



And here is another, from the time of NATO's invasion of Kosovo, that completely dispells Tigranakert's "I have never met even one Armenian who supported the muslims in historic Serbian territory of Kosovo" comment. Not only has the Armenian writer of that article decded to completely ignore the history of Serbia and how closely it has resembled that of Armenia, but he has decided in a unprincipled way to accept as truth the NATO invented "genocide" in Kosovo for no other reason than to publicise the Armenian Genocide.

http://www.caia.org.uk/armenianvoice...dex.htm#link21

It is because of this ignorance that exists that I have posted this thread, in hopes that it may correct some people's wrong impressions. I have tried to do this with certain Jewish acquaintances of mine, and with Chinese people. Ironically, most Jewish people were dismissive whereas the Chinese were understanding. I suppose, coming from such an outsider perspective (Asians being largely outside of the loop on the dirty history of Europe), they did not come with prejudices that some others did. One Jewish guy who is ultra-pro Serb (way too much, in my view) is Victor Vancier.

[Merv]

Re: Genocide of the Serbs

Someone mentioned WWI. Whereas there was no genocide of Serbs in WWI (Austrians didn't want to particularly exterminate Serbs, as the Turks tried to do to Armenians), it was certainly a horrible time and at least 1/4 of the population of Serbia died of starvation, disease, and massacre. This is a British documentary that discusses certain interesting facts that I had not known before, including the fact that the 1914 assassination by Princip set off a wave of pogroms and executions against Bosnian Serbs all over Bosnia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY7fu_9czZE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pogM7wsy62M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0haAQAry6Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoBQquuS0CM

Also, apparently the Austrians used detention camps in WWI for Serbs, including a notorious one in Doboj in Bosnia in which 45,000 were incarcerated and 12,000 killed. Of course, even in WWI, Croats and Muslims in Bosnia were eager to participate in the pogroms and the massacres.

[Merv]

Re: Genocide of the Serbs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srbosjek

Srbosjek (literally "Serb cutter" in Croatian and Serbian, often referred to as "cutthroat") was a specially designed knife used by the Ustaše during World War II for the speedy killing of prisoners in the concentration camps of the Nazi-puppet Independent State of Croatia (NDH), most notably the Jasenovac concentration camp. The victims were Serbs, Jews, and Roma, imprisoned on 'ethnic' grounds, and significant numbers of Croats, imprisoned on the grounds that they were Partisan resistance members, or on the suspicion of taking part in anti-fascist activities.[1]
Preferring to cut the throats of their concentration camp prisoners instead of gassing them, the Ustaše required a special tool. The knife was manufactured during World War II by German factory Gebrüder Gräfrath from Solingen-Widderit under a special order from the NDH government.[2]. Gebrüder Gräfrath was taken over in 1961 by Hubertus Solingen [3].
The upper part of the srbosjek was made of leather, as a sort of a glove, designed to be worn with the thumb going through the hole, so that only the blade protruded from the hand. It was a curved, 12 cm long knife with the edge on its concave side. The knife was fastened to a bowed oval copper plate, while the plate was fastened to a thick leather bangle. There was inscription "Gräwiso" on the leather part of the knife, and the knife was also known as the 'graviso knife' because of this. The blade was curved in order to make it easier to slit the throat of the victim, following the curvature of the neck.[2][4][5] Thus, the Srbosjek knife was designed to kill as fast as possible and with as little fatigue as possible.[6]
In the Jasenovac concentration camp competitions in speedy slaughter were organized by the Ustaše. The winner of one such competition, Petar Brzica slit the throats of 1,360 prisoners.[7]

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Genocide of the Serbs

Just to be factually correct, also, you are right about WWI, but about WWII not exactly. The largest victims (as an ethnic group) were Jews and Gypsies, followed by Russians, Poles, and Serbs. As for what countries experienced the worst killing rates as a whole (not specifying the ethnicity of the victim), it was first Poland, and then the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia were tied in 2nd place.

I still think I'm right in saying that Serbia lost the highest % of its population in WW2, but I can't remember the source I got the info from. The largest number of dead may have been Russians (to be correct we should say Soviet citizens), but it was small in relation to the total population of the Soviet Union. Hitler might have done away with most xxxs in Europe, but as a % of the number of xxxs in the whole world it is not as high as the number of dead Serbs were in relation to the total number of Serbs in the world. Same for Gypsies.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Genocide of the Serbs

...including the fact that the 1914 assassination by Princip set off a wave of pogroms and executions against Bosnian Serbs all over Bosnia:

Ahh ... that reminds me of another Armenian who (in a radio show phone-in during the Kosovo war) accused Serbia of "starting WW1" and of thus being partly responsible for the Armenian Genocide!

[Merv]

Re: Genocide of the Serbs

Ahh ... that reminds me of another Armenian who (in a radio show phone-in during the Kosovo war) accused Serbia of "starting WW1" and of thus being partly responsible for the Armenian Genocide!

Yes, well, that's how its often interpreted nowadays. Given the propaganda against the Serbs in the 1990s, they are no longer portrayed as a people fighting for its liberation from Austrian rule (as the French, British, and Americans would have understood it back in 1914), but rather as the one responsible for WWI. Ironic, really.

The reality is that the war would have happened either way. Germany was eager to assert her power in Europe, Austria was eager to get rid of her main opponent in the Balkans (Serbia and indirectly Russia), and the Ottoman empire was going to respond to Armenians with genocide at one point or another (the Hamidian massacres and the Adana massacre are evidence of a decades-long attitude that tended towards genocide.

This is an interesting book by a German that suggests that Germany was really pushing Austria into declaring war on Serbia:

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Genocide of the Serbs

This is an interesting book by a German that suggests that Germany was really pushing Austria into declaring war on Serbia:

I think that is now the accepted view amongst historians - that Germany wanted a military conflict and engineered the position that Austria would make demands on Serbia that were so totally unacceptable that war was inevitable. And Madeleine Albright, for the same reasons, did the same at the Rambouillet talks in the 1990s. Those that do not learn from history (or at least remember it) are doomed to repeat it - Serbia really should have seen it coming, and seen the earlier events (allowing Germany, a country still dripping in the blood of its millions of victims and completely unashamed and unapologetic about its past criminality in the Balkans, to get away with recognising the breakaway republics is the equivalent of Armenia allowing Turkey to decide how the NK issue should be settled).

[Merv]

Re: Genocide of the Serbs

I think that is now the accepted view amongst historians - that Germany wanted a military conflict and engineered the position that Austria would make demands on Serbia that were so totally unacceptable that war was inevitable. And Madeleine Albright, for the same reasons, did the same at the Rambouillet talks in the 1990s. Those that do not learn from history (or at least remember it) are doomed to repeat it - Serbia really should have seen it coming, and seen the earlier events (allowing Germany, a country still dripping in the blood of its millions of victims and completely unashamed and unapologetic about its past criminality in the Balkans, to get away with recognising the breakaway republics is the equivalent of Armenia allowing Turkey to decide how the NK issue should be settled).

Oh, they saw it from a mile away. But what can a small country like that do against a great power like Germany? Beginning in the early 1990s there was already agitation for "action against Serbia." Everyone jumped in. Germans, NATO, various humanitarians ("ethnic cleansing"), Muslim powers and mujahedeen (they were running around Bosnia in the thousands, decapitating people), feminists ("Serbs are a nation of rapists"), the Jewish community ("another Holocaust is happening, stop it"), etc.

Milosevic was trying to wriggle his way out of getting Serbia attacked for a long 8 years from 1991 to 1999. His support to Croatian Serbs was minimal and then in 1995 he abandoned them to Croatian military attack. In 1994, after the Bosnian Serbs rejected the Vance-Owen peace plan, Milosevic blockaded the Drina River and stopped supplying them with help; then he signed a Dayton agreement that left the Brcko corridor up to the powers-that-be to arbitrate, and of course they essentially gave it to the Muslims, splitting Republika Srpska in half. In 1998, after repeated threats, he allowed into Kosovo the UN observers, which gave William Walker free access, who then concocted the "Racak massace."

Really, it's a sad history of attempting to cower and weasel one's way away from the blow that is inevitable. Rambouillet was a miserable farce and just as scandalous as the WWI ultimatum. Historians who write about it will see that. And the "genocide" stories they circulated about Kosovo mostly turned out to be utter lies as well: 5000 killed Albanians and 2300 killed Serbs (civilians and military) is not evidence of genocide; war crimes maybe, but not genocide. And lets not forget that 90%+ of war crimes (at least by the Serb side) happened after the NATO bombing began, again proof of the fact that NATO did not stop a humanitarian catastrophe but initiated it. But the truth about this will come to the surface eventually.

[arakeretzig]

Re: Genocide of the Serbs

NATO is a bunch of imperialist pigs controlled to serve the purpose of the Zionist agenda. They don't give a xxxx about anyone but themselves and their goals. They use their massive economical resources, propaganda and force to achieve their goals.
Serbia should not get into EU, it will be the biggest mistake it'll ever make. You only have to look at history to see who are your real friends and enemies, but ultimately, you should only trust yourselves.

Also, bell-cat, i've not seen such an armenian hater like you, go back to pakistan defense forum where you belong.