notes and comments

[jgk3]

Re: elegy

Many do though...

Anyways, if you want to know ... I'll tell you !

A simple example is that some of the most talented students in Armenia can't get anywhere. You can see them working in Grand Candy. They have red xxxxing diplomas! You know what that is? You only get that if you've got straight A's like your whole damn life. These people don't get jobs. No one allows them to move on and become somebody. They have to remain nobodies.

The same Aram KHachatryan wouldn't be who he is today if he studied or grew up here. many have tried .... almost all have failed. Isn't it strange that almost all the great people we know today haven't become who they were HERE in Armenia? When W. Saroyan came to Armenia, the Armenians didn't even consider him to be Armenian. They looked at him as if he was a freakin gavur.

J, we have problems bro ... serious problems ... and we need to face them NOW. We're losing our identity in so many ways. It's time to move our asses and I mean right now. I'm doing my part, let's all do our parts.

Yes, there are issues that our diaspora needs to recognize and find ways to ameliorate. Armenia and the Diaspora most work closely together in these matters, for opening up doors for Armenians to use their skills and expertise. I too wish to learn more about what I can do for this end, and start doing it. Because as things stand, emigration from Armenia seems to be the only "solution" available for its inhabitants who feel cheated by the system. Some people say that it is a mark of people being unpatriotic, ignoring the element of how many of these individuals have been cheated by the system they have participated in all their lives. I understand how geopolitics force Armenia in its difficult internal situation, but we here in the diaspora cannot just sit around and point fingers at them, and likewise have Hayastantsis do the same back to us.

Not every aspect of being divided is bad, it is good to be distributed around the world so we can work on different aspects of our existence, be exposed to different opportunities and realities and expand our knowledge of the world and its relation to us. However, this all becomes spoiled when we take these divisions to the heart, and shun eachother for superficial differences. So perhaps it can pay if we can be more humble when approaching eachother when our differences become apparent, knowing that we come from different realities but are willing to discuss things and help eachother instead of running away from eachother.

[seruven]

Re: elegy

The sad thing is that you are totally blind to your country's past and present; which constitutes the best proof/ reference you demand in here... How hypocritical of you Mr. seruven… Carry on lurking and jump in to correct us like some sort of a 'mentor' as soon as someone mentions some fact about Turks that hurts your sensitive feelings slightly. You seem to be playing quite well some Jews' victim game here. I must admit, we don't see many Turks like you.

Lucin, I "jump in" (to the topics related to Turks) whenever I feel that no other member will do. If we ask forum members what it is they want, they'll say justice. But how just they are is questionable.

[seruven]

Re: elegy

Kardesh, I wanted to, just couldn't remember the name . Sorry bro. This list exists though. It was created by the United Nations if I'm not mistaken and Turkey was in 1st place. It was a bit hard for me to believe as well at first (when I first joined the forums) but when I realized what's going on in Turkey, I completely agreed with the list. Turkey really is in a critical state. Let's face it and find a way to move on.

If you knew me well, you'd know that I don't lie and I don't mention anything unless it's serious. If you didn't know, now you know...

Saco, I'm sure about your sincerity and never thought that you're lying about the existence of a list. However, I don't think UN would ever list countries according to "uncivility, backwardness, and inhumanity".
You can't just believe everything you read in a newspaper, you watch on TV or you see on the net. It should be an asparagas which is created in order to pet Armenians' feelings.

[jgk3]

Re: elegy

Lucin, I "jump in" (to the topics related to Turks) whenever I feel that no other member will do. If we ask forum members what it is they want, they'll say justice. But how just they are is questionable.

Seruven, you're right. How could we expect Turks to pay heed to what we have to say if we're not even willing to correct such an allegation against them that was made without a reference or logical explanation? This instance was a testimony of our general attitude on these forums. Of course, some of us here couldn't care less about what a Turk would think or have to say, but as this place is a platform for discussion and not a warzone, I do not see why we should alienate a Turk who is willing to hold discussions with us and learn about us.

[Sako]

Re: elegy

There are 70 million Turkish citizens, about 20% Kurd. I'd estimate there are 50,000-100,000 Armenians who know they are Armenian. I'd also go out on a limb and say there are roughly a million who are of Armenian descent and don't know it.

That's still not enough!

Yes, there are issues that our diaspora needs to recognize and find ways to ameliorate. Armenia and the Diaspora most work closely together in these matters, for opening up doors for Armenians to use their skills and expertise. I too wish to learn more about what I can do for this end, and start doing it. Because as things stand, emigration from Armenia seems to be the only "solution" available for its inhabitants who feel cheated by the system. Some people say that it is a mark of people being unpatriotic, ignoring the element of how many of these individuals have been cheated by the system they have participated in all their lives. I understand how geopolitics force Armenia in its difficult internal situation, but we here in the diaspora cannot just sit around and point fingers at them, and likewise have Hayastantsis do the same back to us.

That's so xxxxin childish bro , ain't it? It's like seeing one brother pointing at another brother, lol. It's just embarrassing.

And what's going on here isn't happening because our people aren't patriotic or something. I can tell you stories about this gov. that would make your hair stand on end . You know how many patriots we've lost bro? GREAT patriots, mind you. We have to stand up RIGHT NOW and make sure we don't lose anyone else.

Not every aspect of being divided is bad, it is good to be distributed around the world so we can work on different aspects of our existence, be exposed to different opportunities and realities and expand our knowledge of the world and its relation to us. However, this all becomes spoiled when we take these divisions to the heart, and shun eachother for superficial differences. So perhaps it can pay if we can be more humble when approaching eachother when our differences become apparent, knowing that we come from different realities but are willing to discuss things and help eachother instead of running away from eachother.

One line: Armenians can live wherever they like but always must feel as if they are part of one big family and not feel low when letting others know who they are.

Look at the xxxs bro. No matter where they are, they still work together and don't hide who they are. They are PROUD to be xxxs. When I look at many Armenians, I get the impression that they WISH they weren't Armenians or something. We all feel separated from each other and want to always work alone. That isn't right and that's Armenia's BIGGEST problem. Hands down.

Saco, I'm sure about your sincerity and never thought that you're lying about the existence of a list. However, I don't think UN would ever list countries according to "uncivility, backwardness, and inhumanity".
You can't just believe everything you read in a newspaper, you watch on TV or you see on the net. It should be an asparagas which is created in order to pet Armenians' feelings.

Dude, what do you take me for? Do you really think I believe everything? I wasn't expecting to hear this from you kardesh. What's up with that? This list exists and Turkey is in first place. This should be something all of you there should be worried about right now. And this list exists. A thread was even opened last year I think here in the AG Forums. If there is one person you can trust in these forums, it's me. Why would I be lying to you or talking about some worthless list? Problem is, it isn't worthless... I wish it was!

Seruven, you're right. How could we expect Turks to pay heed to what we have to say if we're not even willing to correct such an allegation against them that was made without a reference or logical explanation? This instance was a testimony of our general attitude on these forums.

J, I think your going a bit too far with this. I didn't just make a statement, you know! And my attitude towards Turks I'm not afraid to so is probably the best attitude you can find. I'm not dissing anyone by what I said. I'm just stating facts. Right now I'm searching for the thread that was posted last year.

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

Thursday, June 17, 2009
*****************************************
WHEN THE RICH FIGHT
IT IS THE POOR WHO DIE
************************************************** ****
When the fat cats on Wall Street made a mess of the world economy, they gave themselves a fat bonus, as the poor lost their jobs, their savings, and their pensions. Worse was to follow. The top dogs in Washington bailed out the fat cats with the money of the very same victims who had been skinned alive. It's always the same story.
*
To identify a people – any people – with the regime – any regime – amounts to identifying the victim with his victimizer.
*
We either parrot the words of cunning manipulators or we learn to think for ourselves.
*
If you think slavery in a democratic America was a mistake that has been corrected, consider the legitimacy of the Vietnam and Iraq wars. All men are created equal? If true both Bush Jr. and Chaney would be among the dead now.
Closer to home: after leading the people to genocide our own “best and brightest” blame it on the rest of mankind, as if mankind had suddenly changed the rules of the game on us; and what is even more unbelievable, they are believed. Speaking for myself: I have trouble deciding which is more reprehensible: the massacres or the cold-blooded and calculated deception.
*
A smart Armenian is one who says, “I don't want to be like my people. I want to learn from my mistakes.”
*
In our case, “Know thine enemy” and “Know thyself” might as well be synonymous statements.
*
In this morning's paper I read: “...much of the world remained an unwelcome place for many...” You may now guess who the “many” are and who are responsible for driving them out.
*
To paraphrase Saroyan: “Empires may rise and fall but bloodsuckers hang in forever.”
#

[Sako]

Re: elegy

Thursday, June 17, 2009
*****************************************
WHEN THE RICH FIGHT
IT IS THE POOR WHO DIE
************************************************** ****
When the fat cats on Wall Street made a mess of the world economy, they gave themselves a fat bonus, as the poor lost their jobs, their savings, and their pensions. Worse was to follow. The top dogs in Washington bailed out the fat cats with the money of the very same victims who had been skinned alive. It's always the same story.
*
To identify a people – any people – with the regime – any regime – amounts to identifying the victim with his victimizer.
*
We either parrot the words of cunning manipulators or we learn to think for ourselves.
*
If you think slavery in a democratic America was a mistake that has been corrected, consider the legitimacy of the Vietnam and Iraq wars. All men are created equal? If true both Bush Jr. and Chaney would be among the dead now.
Closer to home: after leading the people to genocide our own “best and brightest” blame it on the rest of mankind, as if mankind had suddenly changed the rules of the game on us; and what is even more unbelievable, they are believed. Speaking for myself: I have trouble deciding which is more reprehensible: the massacres or the cold-blooded and calculated deception.
*
A smart Armenian is one who says, “I don't want to be like my people. I want to learn from my mistakes.”
*
In our case, “Know thine enemy” and “Know thyself” might as well be synonymous statements.
*
In this morning's paper I read: “...much of the world remained an unwelcome place for many...” You may now guess who the “many” are and who are responsible for driving them out.
*
To paraphrase Saroyan: “Empires may rise and fall but bloodsuckers hang in forever.”
#

This is what I mean when I talk about confusion! So many ideas in one post. Each of these ideas belong to a much broader discussion. So why do you try to say everything so fast? For example, you talk about America and then talk about what a smart Armenian should say! Does that make sense to you? A simple, straightforward post would get your message out MUCH better then this post ever could because it's what I like to call Borsh. You've mixed up all kinds of thoughts that have come in your mind in one post.

Now say I think you made a mistake in one sentence ... I can't say anything! Why? Because it will lead to a much broader discussion which means I won't get an answer. Just look at how you ignored almost 5 of my posts again. For that reason, I'm asking you to simply go one at a time unless you want us to completely ignore your posts from now on. I'm trying really hard here to read and try and understand you ... please give me a reason to continue doing so.

[jgk3]

Re: elegy

I like the structure of ara's post, it starts with a familiar, easily understandable example (Wall Street gangsters), then shows how peoples' minds support such tyrannical structures (referring to his fellow Armenians of course), reminds us again of the American example of false promises (a phenomenon that is nowhere near exclusively American), reminds us how Armenians seek to be blameless...

It's just his central message that until we recognize the terms of the world and stop blaming someone else for our troubles, our not so virtuous leaders will manipulate us through our surface differences and lead us to satisfy their own whims, ultimately leading to the worst possible tyranny, the kind where we see nothing amiss with our situation.

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

Friday, June 18, 2009
*****************************************
THE WAGES OF SIN
************************************************** ****
Hannah Arendt: “If we do not know our own history, we are doomed to live it as though it were our fate.”
*
At the beginning we were divided by deep valleys, high mountains, and long winters. What divides us today? Nothing but habit. Habit compounded by ignorance. Habit so deeply entrenched that it might as well be in our DNA. If two Armenians on a desert island build three churches (the third being the one they stay aware from) they will feel as though they had a monkey on their back.
*
One reason solidarity has eluded us so far is that we pretend to be ignorant of the consequences of tribalism. It is not easy to convince a tribal people to become a nation by submitting their will to a centralized authority. But the alternative – that is, allowing geography or habit to shape our destiny – is infinitely harder. We know now that the alternative has been defeat by a smaller but better organized tribe, followed by centuries of degrading subservience, mass deportations, and massacres (both “red” and “white” -- that is, alienation and assimilation). Knowing this we continue to stay divided and to waste valuable energy, resources, and emotional investment on genocide recognition, a cause that so far, and after almost a century, has failed to resurrect a single victim or to annex a single square inch of historic Armenia.
*
It is said of masochists that if they fail to find a sadist, they become their own sadist. That, it seems, is the alternative we have chosen – to wallow in self-pity and to beg others to support our cause, as if others supported us when we needed them most. As if others support anyone that is not in their own interest.
*
There are two kinds of failings or sins: those we commit knowingly and the others. But sooner or later we are punished for both. And the wages of sin is death.
#

[arabaliozian]

Re: elegy

VARTAN'S VISION

> The vision with which THE FOOL ends epitomizes Raffi's dreams of a
> future independent Armenia.
> Vartan, the protagonist, returning home from the Russo-Turkish wars
> (1877-1878) finds the village of
> Alashkerd destroyed and his beloved Lala dead.
> At her grave he falls unconscious from grief and exhaustion, and has a
> vision in which Eden has been
> reinstated in Armenia, but an Eden that has been brought by hard ,
> honest, skillful labor. Innocence ,
> ignorance, and fear of a vengeful Jehovah have been replaced with
> awareness and wisdom. Vartan sees a
> completely rebuilt Alashkerd, where even Armenia's perennial enemies,
> the Kurds, have been civilized and
> assimilated. "Kurds ? What Kurds? says an astonished villager when
> Vartan broaches the subject. " I
> remember to have read about them in books of ancient history, but they
> exist no longer." Vartan takes a
> walk through the village and everywhere he sees peace and harmony.
> Instead of uninviting, dreary shacks,
> he sees elegant stone houses with flowering gardens. The dusty roads
> have been transformed into tree-
> lined avenues. Only one thing has not changed, Raffi hastens to add,
> and that is the Armenian language.
>
> From "THE ARMENIANS
> THEIR HISTORY AND CULTURE A SHORT INTRODUCTION" (Toronto 1975)
> By Ara Baliozion
>